Interview with Kat Milam, November 6, 2017

Kat Milam, Transcript, November 6, 2017

Lexi: This is Lexi Mischnick from Belmont University in Intro to Global Leadership Studies at Thistle Farms with Kat.

Kat: This is Kat from Thistle Farms.

Lexi: What's your position here?

Kat: Oh! I'm director of education and outreach.

Lexi: Super cool! Ok, so what part of your personal biography or back ground led you to this position?

Kat: ooohh, that's a good question. You know I love these so much. I think what honestly what probably led me to Thistle Farms was that I am really interested in a lot of different subjects - kind of like you - and so I knew that Thistle Farms was a place that I could go to learn about all those at once. I am not just learning about housing, or homelessness or mental health, or addiction, I am learning about all of it at once. I came to the community once and felt like really welcomed and like it was my home, and so I was like I am going to work here if I can, and then it worked out.

Lexi: That's awesome. I do love how everything here is like so much more than one thing it's like it brings so many different aspects into one job and you don't have to pick

Kat: Yes, it's super holistic. Which is effective, and really interesting.

Lexi: Yes I love that. What cultural identities or experiences are most salient for you? And I didn't know what salient means so it's noticeable or important.

Kat: Shoot, that's a really good question. I don't know if this makes sense--I think just sitting back and listening to people about each other's culture. I think knowing that we all come from different cultures and then knowing that everyone needs to sit back and listen to each other. So, like it's Regina sitting back and listening to me about my life. And then also me like sitting back and listening to her so it's not assuming one group is better than the other or that there are even groups but just kind of like--I don't know if that makes sense.

Lexi: No, I think it's like just an immersion into things that aren't what you're used to.

Kat: Yeah.

Lexi: And like being around people who grow up differently and like you have struggles. But you all still struggle but they're just they're not the same, and they're not going to compare. But they're unique and they're different. And like you said like no one person is better than the other or that there's groups but you just go through different things in life.

Kat: I think talking about is super important. Yeah being honest with each other about like when you are feeling the difference, and what do about that. yeah, I think talking is important.

Lexi: Yeah. And I think that's also something that's like wax too is like. And I that's cool here and I think there's a lot of conversation and I think there's a diverse group which is great because, I think that we lack that a lot where people are just scared to talk about differences and what people have been through you know.

Kat: I completely agree I had a conversation about it just the other day. It's really important.

Lexi: I just think it's awesome. Ok, what experiences have most shaped you as a leader?

Kat: I think definitely the one's where I get thrown into things and I have no idea what to do like the riskiest ones. So, I think that like for me my job at Thistle Farms is really risky like jumping into my position like director, and having no idea what I was doing. But just like the fact that Becca trusted me with that responsibility like I feel like that was definitely like that experience shaped me her being like I'm giving this to you like do it.

Lexi: Like being thrown into it almost.

Kat: It's such the perfect way to empower someone. Is being like I know you don't know how to do it but like I trust you.

Lexi: Yeah, I kinda feel like you can't like I think sometimes you don't know your capable. I know I don't know what I'm capable of a lot.

Kat: And sometimes it's wonderful when other people see it in you.

Lexi: Yeah, I love it. Ok, were you called into leadership or did you seek it because of held convictions? I guess you kind of kind of answered it there but--

Kat: Yeah. I honestly think that it was a little of both like I was really convicted that I had a vision for Thistle Farms. And I felt pretty strongly about what I thought needed to happen with so like I just like approached Hal and Becca and shared it with them. It was like it was same moment that Becca called me into it too. So, it was like a little of both.

Lexi: Ya, no it totally does. Ok, and then how have you learned from all the challenges you faced?

Kat: Oh, I think the biggest thing I like how I've learned is when someone, specifically with Regina, like my biggest learning experience is to admit my mistakes and be really honest about it instead of like trying to cover up that I've messed up or find my way around like the truth of it. Even if it's like I did something mean or like made a bad mistake like I don't want to just being like really honest. Regina I'm sorry this was what I was thinking and that's wrong and I apologize. It's like being honest it's like working through those things which is just so hard. Like really hard and it was like bawling in my office the other day with Regina I just had to admit that I was wrong.

Lexi: And you like as a human It's hard to admit you're wrong.

Kat: Especially like when you're a leader and you don't wanna like I've worked so hard for this like you get your own insecurities and that's really hard.

Lexi: But I think that's what makes a leader. I don't, I honestly don't think you can be a great leader if you don't admit that you're wrong sometimes. But it is so hard. Kat: You have to have the confidence of knowing like I can be wrong and still feel convicted and be there for someone.

Lexi: Ok. What does leadership mean to you? And then I also kind of added in here like how do you think Thistle Farms shows leadership in the community? And also, those in the program?

Kat: Oh, that's a tough question. I feel like this is like I feel pretty strongly about this one. But like for me leadership is like getting out of the way and like allowing the individuals I worked with to lead the way. So, for instance like we had to like we have like directors meetings all the directors go. But Regina was like I really want to go to it. It was like great like go to it like I'll do whatever like but if you want to go and like if you want to step up then like step up and don't let me stop you because like if I'm wanting to be there like I think I need to like check what that's about why I like wanting to be above someone. Making sure that yes you can have whatever title you want but like ultimately end of the day like you're on the exact same level as everyone you work beside. Yes, that's the biggest thing for me. That was like stepping aside letting other people lead.

Lexi: Yeah. No, I think that totally does and I think that shows like your leadership style as well.

Kat: yeah that's a good point because I bet ya'll talk about leadership style.

Lexi: So, I think that kind of just like shows like sometimes it's ok like you're not going to be like. It sounds like you're not like the most authoritative necessarily. I'm not either at all.

Kat: If I have to go speak in front of a group--fine. But otherwise I would rather see someone else do it Yeah. They're the ones who are like I don't like their leaders too. Yeah that's cool I never thought about that.

Lexi: And then I guess like so like how do you think that Thistle farms shows leadership to the community then also people in the program.

Kat: I think that's pretty much what I said is like kind of consistent across the entire organization is the idea being like sharing skills like giving someone what they need to be a leader. And then like stepping out of the way and making that position for them if that makes sense.

Kat: Just like facilitating the process of empowerment by like skill building, and like creating space for that leadership. Yeah, I would say that that's kind of like the gist of leadership at Thistle Farms if that makes sense.

Lexi: Yes it totally does.

Kat: And like having graduate's teach residents how to do their jobs at Thistle farms so it's like so if someone is doing manufacturing then like a graduate is going to be the one teaching them the new skills.

Lexi: Yeah but even like when we visited as a class. And I totally forgot her name but she like read the lesson.

Kat: Oh! Lolita

Lexi: She read our meditation for the day and it was like give her like to see you know like she just came she didn't come in here as like as in someone who had all this power. But like she stepped in our group and like you all gave her the ability to do that. kind of like how like how you were handed your job someone saw that in you like someone saw that in her and had her head that and she even said I did not talk like I kind of like I sat in the back. But then like people saw in her that she, she could lead like that.

Kat: And I think that's a cool thing too. She was just sitting around after work and I was like "Lolita do you want to maybe sit in the circle with us?" And she was like "ok" And like once she got she like she was so happy you know.

Lexi: Yes, that was super cool I loved that. Ok, and then I guess we kind have talked about this like characterizing your leadership style. Definitely not authoritative.

Kat: Yeah whatever like the most supportive one. Whatever is like the supporter role but like I'm also like you willing to call out bs. Yes. So, kind of like I don't know. Whatever that is. I don't know. Very justice oriented. So probably like ya it's like the one who like pushes others to go.

Lexi: Ok, and then what are your professional strengths and weaknesses?

Kat: That's a good question. My weakness is definitely practicing using my voice more like speaking up and like calling things out that I think need to be fixed. So, I think that's my weakness. My strength is potentially like my vision slash strategy behind like seeing like I guess like being able to like step away and see like for like a department for instance what needs to happen and what's that's going to look like in ten years.

Lexi: And you even said like coming into Thistle Farms like you kind of had like a vision or like you knew where you wanted to take it almost. And so, I feel like that's definitely kind of what you said. Like I think that's definitely one of your strengths is like seeing something and like being able to like put it together

Kat: like kind of like problem solving and like here's our next steps lets go. So it goes back into like you implementing it and it kind of like going back and seeing it happen like it's like watching others like being like hey I have this cool idea. And then seeing it get played out by others and then others stepping up.

Kat: that's like my dream to like constructing it all and the being like ok yall do it and also feel like and be leading.

Lexi: Yeah. Okay. And then what or who has been your greatest influence?

Kat: I think a mixture of Becca and Regina Probably because like they are really good at just like knowing it's going to work out and like once they call it and like say like this just going to work out like stop stressing out like their influence of trust and doing what's right and knowing It's going to play out really well. It's like That's been had a huge influence on me I think. Yeah, I mean it's like shaped the way I work daily. Yeah because normally I would be much more up tight and a perfectionist but they're just like its gonna work out fine don't worry about it.

Lexi: Yeah. What influenced you like before them? Or influenced you to even look into non-profit and like work for a non-profit.

Kat: ooh that's a really good question. I'm interested in what your answer is to that is too. Well Honestly Becca was the one who called me out like originally and said come work at Thistle Farms. I was going to work for Megan Berry but then she called me out and was like hey, I think you need to be working for Thistle Farms instead like this seems more of your thing. So, she was like kind of like my initial influence into non-profit work. Other than that, my family probably you know just like I don't know what about you?

Lexi: Ok, my mom like worked for CASA and Child Protective Services and so we never really talked about it growing up. I mean is she like kind. She quit like before. Like my sister my older sister. I feel like that's like and yeah, we never really talked about it but like piece of her I kind of like see that in me. And then also like I grew up doing it like National Charity League. Since like seventh grade to my senior year and I've always done community service I've always been involved. Yeah. And so, I've always like really enjoyed it too. I hated the meetings but I loved going out and being able to help others.

Kat: It's funny that was such a big part of your life. And so, you know some people don't have that has a part which is weird and we take it for granted.

Lexi: it was cool because it was like a mother daughter organization. So, like I did that with my mom and like my older sister until she graduated my freshman year of high school. And it was just like me and my mom for like sophomore junior and senior year.

Kat: That's really cool.

Lexi: And so yeah that definitely had. I mean community service in general has been like a really big part .And then like I did like PROS in high school so I like I was like mentor to like elementary school kids and like I always babysat So I just feel like that like nurturing part of me and like that like relationship or relationship building and like just being there for someone to like brighten their day almost.

Kat: That's pretty like what it means for you to have a good day and feel like you have done something to pour into someone else which is cool. I think that is a really important part of it like how you have been brought up.

Lexi: Yeah. I don't know who I would have you know been if I hadn't done community service all throughout high school or like starting in like even like middle school you know doing that.

Kat: My parents joke about it all the time. So, my brother and sister do very similar things so.

Lexi: Really?

Kat: Oh yeah, so my brother is a charter school teacher in east Nashville and my sister is like a trauma therapist in north Nashville.

Lexi: That's cool that ya'll are all in Nashville though.

Kat: It's so fun! So, I can refer people to her which is great.

Lexi: But yeah, it's a little bit of me. Ok, leaders help to turn ideas into action and empower others. How do you accomplish this? and I kind of feel like we've honestly touched on this though too. But if you want to expand more.

Kat: No yeah, I think just like what we said can just like creating the framework and then stepping away.

Lexi: Yeah. And that's literally just like describes you it's like turning ideas into action, and then empowering others. You are a leader right here. It's like literally just like totally describes what we've been talking about it. Do you feel it's important to delegate? And if so when and how would you delegate?

Kat: So, for me I think what I've needed to learn to do is to delegate. So, I used to have like a very tight hold on what I delegated but my challenge is to delegate more and more and to like take risks in my delegation's I think like that's how you form greater leaders is by like taking a risk. And so, if like a persons like delegating something bad I'm really nervous that is like so-and-so might not be able to handle it and like it might go really badly. But I kind of like knowing this if she doesn't come accomplish this it is going to be a really big step for her. See I think that like the when is as often as possible. And usually when I think that it might not work. And how is like checking out why and making sure someone feels supported and like prepared and seeing if they have any anxiety about like what they've been delegated to do. And like yeah like helping out like fill in the gaps of skills that they might not to do it perfectly. You know what I mean?

Lexi: Yeah. Do you have like an example?

Kat: Ya, so for instance, this is a perfect example...we do conference calls every other month with all the sister orgs. And so, like I used to run those, it was great so we have like 40 sister orgs and so we do six different conference calls for all of them and we split them up into groups and everything. It's like if you use technology to do the too. I recently started delegating that more to Regina and being like this is something you're gonna take on like I've seen like X Y Z in you and I've seen you do these three things that have given me confidence in you being able to do this so like go for it. And so, um...she's done an incredible job but like it's definitely been like almost every day I would write out a to do list for her so like step one like this what you do first. Like these are this steps that you'll take to like, do everything from like attach something to an email to like copying and pasting you know like yeah, it's like you really go through each step to have her feel like confident in her ability to make that happen.

Lexi: Right.

Kat: but just like taking the time to do it instead of me doing in in fifteen minutes.

Lexi: I think that's like again such a good representation of again a leader. like you taking the time to like I think that leaders are people who are going to take the time to really like help others and like and not just do things because it's easier to do things for themselves which is so much easier to do. But like you taking the time to like you're like hey like this is how you copy paste this. Even when you could do it and not have to teach someone.

Kat: And of course, copying and pasting is like brushing out teeth like, we know how to do it.

Lexi: Right and so like that just like I think that's like a strength. And that's one of your strengths too that goes back up there like I think being able to like taking the time out of your schedule.

Kat: Right I think that goes back to remembering the mission. You know what I mean. I think that especially when you have a social enterprise it's really easy to think that the mission is like growth and revenue. Yeah. I just remembering like the revenue we make means nothing if like we're not passing along skills to individuals.

Lexi: right And you even like touched on that when we all met here when you were talking about I think it was like wholefoods or something is like you're a biggest seller and then you're like we don't even It's not like we make a profit off of that . But it's getting our name out there.

Kat: That's a really Important point.

Lexi: Yeah. And like you know making sure people--

Kat: Thanks for picking up on that. I think it's super important. I think it's the way that like some social enterprises can kind of get skewed in the other direction, like away from mission.

Lexi: Right. I mean I think that's easy too because we're like such a consumeristic society. I mean if you even like look at Goodwill and like they're like head who is making like millions of dollars which takes away from the fact that they're trying to help you know like give people jobs and stuff like somehow like you're head making all you know.

Kat: Talk about a good leader. Becca who started it doesn't even make a salary through Thistle Farms. She has never gotten a salary she just makes it through like She's like technically a priest is if she makes it through the church that she's a priest at. Isn't that crazy though

Lexi: That's literally insane. I didn't know that too.

Kat: She doesn't even take a salary.

Lexi: That's awesome And I think that's like something like that's how it should be. You know--

Kat: Like if you're really being a leader--that's a challenge oh my gosh.

Lexi: But like that's super cool. I like had no idea. That's really awesome.

Kat: She's definitely not doing it for herself.

Lexi: Yeah. I mean like that she's like so like pouring your money and time into other people. And like really truly making a difference

Kat: Because her thing is like why would she be making money if someone else could use it.

Lexi: Right. I love it, I love it so much. Ok, how do you measure success and then how do you learn from failure?

Kat: Ok, is this like as an organization or an individual would you say?

Lexi: I mean it could be both.

Kat: I think as an organization actually and as an individual. It's like seeing the people that you're working beside not just like I guess like accumulate small successes in their life. So, I like seeing the people like anyone in our community accumulate all those little successes that like eventually you'll see like build up to something larger. Whether it's like a change in their personality, or the fact that they are renting a property on their own, like I think there is a lot of different ways that it can be shown. I think it ultimately comes down to that. And then, I learned from failure ohh, how do you learn from failure I think just from like a lot of honesty and also through like taking time to like check in every so often and like evaluate yourself and the people around you. which is interesting we do like peer evaluations here. So that's interesting sometimes it's really good sometimes it's really bad like its hard we used to not do that but then we implemented them and like there was a lot of pushback because people were like why are you evaluating me like don't judge me. So, it's a tricky balance. Lexi: Yeah for sure.

Kat: No but that's an interesting question.

Lexi: I think too, success here is almost like measured differently than it is in a lot of places.

Kat: Oh my gosh, yes.

Lexi: Because I don't think success here is like I mean even like what we just talked about its not about how much money we're making which And I feel like now people, people if you like ok what does successful mean to you I feel like a lot of people would be like oh well I'm making a good salary and I'm like living comfortably. You know and I feel like here is so much like it's so much more than like it's like ya it's getting people on their feet an being able to provide. But it's more like having it seems like having a community.

Kat: Totally 100 percent ya, like staying in community. It really depends on the individual. For some people, it's going to be like they had a conversation on the phone with their three sons and then for some people it's going to be like they were able to sit in a room for an hour without having a panic attack. Just knowing the individual and knowing what they like what their history is and then like being able to recognize that. Yeah, so yeah super individual I guess.

Lexi: Ok, what are two or three actions steps that you believe are essential to enable others to be successful?

Kat: I think one really important action step is like calling out--like first like seeing what's good in them and like calling them out. And like instilling confidence and like reminding someone how talented they are first to help give them the fuel they need to move forward. So, I think that's one really important action step. And the second is like skating the environment around them and like what you as their support system need to put in place to have them succeed. Kind of almost finding the barriers that will pop up in the future and being like this is like something that is going to happen let me make sure I give her the tools that she needs so when she encounters this she has those. And then I guess the third one would be being there to support like for like when they walk.

Lexi: Yeah it totally does. Ok, what advice do you have for building relationships and trust in an organization? I feel like that's super important here too.

Kat: I think and I feel confident that the survivor leaders would say this too that for us at least at Thistle Farms, it's consistency and follow through. So, like if you say you're going to do something you like have got to do it like be like 100 percent with your word at all times. I think like the reason for that is that almost everyone here has a history of trauma. So, it's a really important in a trauma informed environment that like basically you set expectations and follow through with them. Um, and its hard because if you lose someone's trust here it's pretty hard to get to get it back because like given what everyone's been through. So ya, I would say consistency definitely, that's the most important thing I think.

Lexi: Awesome. Yeah. And I think that question just like is like one of the biggest things here. Like I feel like bigger than at like a lot of places. I think it's always important but like it's so huge here. Ok, what do you want your legacy to be? And then what do you want Thistle Farm's legacy to be?

Kat: I want my legacy to--or for others to like to found their place and like found what truly is like their place in the circle and to be in a position both in their professional and their personal life as that they want to be in and hopefully for me to have helped them and supported them in doing that as best I could. So, for instance I would love it if when I left, Regina took my place as director. I would love it if a graduate my end goal is having someone else push me out because they're so talented. And then what was the other one? Oh, what do you want Thistle Farms legacy to be. I think definitely like a cultural change on a national level around just like our expectations for survivors of trafficking like how we see them and talk about them and like accept them into community. Hopefully culture has just shifted from whatever they were originally seen as to being like not only are we all equal but working together just like integrate others back to society instead of maintaining that boundary and the barrier. Yeah, I think like the cultural shift would be good.

Lexi: How do you think that Thistle Farms makes that possible? And then how do you think that like they will reach that scale--

Kat: Yeah like on a national level. Oh my gosh. So that's really interesting one it's probably the reason I say that is I know that's Becca vision for it. And so, I think that the how--is going around sharing the story and finding survivors to share their story and their messages whether it's hope for something else whatever is there a message like giving individuals a platform to share that through. Becca travels like a third of the year like in other states and countries sharing their stories. I think that that's like the super part is story telling. Ya, I think story telling. And then what was the other question

Lexi: Honestly, I just made it up. I just had it. I honestly forgot what the other part was.

Kat: No, but I think the answer would be story telling.

Lexi: Because I even know after I came here I've been like "Thistle Farms is so awesome," you know and I've told people about it.

Kat: And you know like for me that's exactly how it was for me. You know I had no idea but then feeling super convicted that something purely good is happening here. Like I haven't found that any place else. I feel comfortable supporting it 100 percent.

Lexi: Ok. How do you think Thistle Farms has a short-term impact and a long-term impact? And I feel we have kind of touched on it. I think this can be like the community and to the people who are directly impacted by Thistle Farms.

Kat: I think that maybe one of the only things we haven't touched on is the fact that like yes, there's a direct impact for like say like the woman who lives in the residential program for two years and is still working for Thistle farms. But, I think the longer term that's often missed is how that's affecting like her five children that she used to not have custody of and like now has custody of. And like. is housing everyday instead of them living or being whatever through GCS I think part of the long-term is seeing that when you can heal one woman you are healing a community not just the individual.

Lexi: Yeah, I love that too. I didn't even think about that. like ya'll are helping one women off the streets but she gets her family back.

Kat: She is helping so many more it's crazy and the impact that one woman's life can have in her community, is unbelievable and like the difference that giving her the space to heal can make in like 10 other people's lives. 

Lexi: Ya, it's crazy. Is thistle farms trying to change the criminal justice system or is it just being here and simply like helping those who have been effected by it?

Kat: I think this is such a really good question I think the long-term goal of Thistle Farms along with the cultural change, part of that would be to start impacting legislation on like a national scale and I think that the strategy behind that is creating this network of sister organizations. Where we will be aligning essentially hundreds of other organizations kind of in the same belief and conviction that you need holistic care for survivors. I think part of it yes is future oriented but part of it is defiantly we are already doing it and that like back a long time ago Becca started what is called the Johns school, and this is just one example there is a few other things. And she started the Johns school and it's where men who have solicited prostitutes for the first time and gotten convicted can come to a class that we host, and can pay 300 dollars, and then like basically learn about why that is a mistake and why they need to never do that again. And so, the 300 dollars they pay goes directly to thistle farms. so just being creative about the ways that we see justice um and ya so that is one example.

Lexi: That's really cool and it's like they--it's kind of funny honestly too because it's like you're literally getting these people who maybe even affected people who you are helping and then the money is going back to help these people 

Kat: That's the best part is that they are literally paying $300 to Thistle farms. I host the Johns school and its soo interesting oh my gosh. and also like the DA's office, we partner with the DA's department it's a really good partnership. What I want to do though is put some better systems in place to track the difference that it has in the community so there is ways it can be improved but its good.

Lexi: What do you do as a part of that?

Kat: It is so great so a typical example about what it means to lead is I just get community members from all across Nashville like public health center, survivor leader just like all different groups to come speak and its great it's like a full day and ya. The DA's office, this is like we didn't host at thistle farms until the first-time last month because for 10 years it was hosted by the DA's office and then it just like came to us. 

Lexi: That's awesome, is there anything else hidden that Thistle Farms does? Because, I feel like I didn't know about that.

Kat: Yes, we have Magdalene on the inside so that is just another answer to this question so essentially what we did is we convinced the Tennessee Prison for Women to let us come in and so we get a lot of grants to do this. We have essentially I think it's like 6 women total in the Tennessee prison for women that we do group and individual therapy with them and kind of the residential program in the inside of the prison system with the goal being that we provide that same healing for them in the prison and then they come out of transition into thistle farms so it's just the idea that why would you not have someone in therapy, as soon as possible to something like that where it's is like ok let's talk to the prison system about how the way they are doing this is screwed up and what we can do to change it. And so far, it had an incredible impact on outcomes. So that's been cool. 

Lexi: That's super awesome 

Kat: Magdalene on the inside is another great thing.

Lexi: Yeah there's so many like cool hidden things. You see thistle farms as a cafe but once you start learning there's so much more that I feel happens.

Kat: And it's cool because thistle farms has given people who see ways to improve a way to do it. Like Shilah, one of the graduates, started Magdalen on the Inside so there's so many things that we can do better and hopefully we can include that more and more in our mission.