Interview with Scott Rubin, November 26, 2018

ï"¿ Tiffanie Bohrer: What part of your personal biography or background led you to this position?

Scott Rubin: There were people there for me when I was a teenager, not actually at willow but that kind of concept, that was to be able to do something or to try and lead something that was impactful for me when I was younger. That was pretty much the biggest significance of the whole thing even though it was not necessarily the most paying position in the world, but you know what? I want to be able to do something that can really make an impact.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Overall what does leadership mean to you? What would your definition of leadership be?

Scott Rubin: Well, I do not know if this is going to sound all that original, but I think it is in its simplest form, to me leadership is, the ability to influence somebody or somebodies and so if you put it down to a particular orient it would be influence because you can lead in positive ways or in negative ways. There are all kinds of ways that that can happen. When you are influencing somebody, I feel like it is when you are in leadership at a corporation or a ministry or a family or even with roommates, you know what I’m saying? It is all these kinds of things.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Right and Willow does an especially good job with Impact and all the different opportunities to have leaders volunteer and also the staff.

Scott Rubin: Yeah, that is it right? It is not a title, you can lead with no position. You can lead wherever you as far as I am concerned with that.

Tiffanie Bohrer: How would you characterize your own leadership style?

Scott Rubin: What a great question. I feel like my style would be sort of a personal style. I try and figure out what each situation or what each person needs. I feel like leadership at its strongest point is person to person. I feel like to lead, to lead a ministry or to lead an organization, it is really about leading individual people more than just like standing in front of a crowd or that sort of thing. So, I feel like it is more of a personal thing where you have to understand who are the people you are leading and what do they need most and what is that you can do to kind of contribute to that need. I feel like that is and I do not know and again trying to talk about different styles, is trying to look personally what does every person need and how can I do something to contribute to that piece.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Awesome. What are your professional strengths and weaknesses? Scott Rubin: Hm. Strengths and weaknesses when it pertains to leadership, I am assuming? Kind of in general?

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah, in general. Scott Rubin: I think that it is probably two sides of the same, I think one of my strengths is trying to sort of discern what is needed next in a particular situation, like what is the highest priority of things that need to happen next. You know for a person or a group of people, so I think that a bit of a strength for me is discerning priorities and what order some things need to happen in. so I think there is a piece in that that is true for me. And this might sound funny compared to what I just said before, but I think one of the weaknesses that could come with that and that is a weakness for me too is that sometimes getting caught in the trap of putting those needs up higher than what the individual person needs for the next run, if you know what I am saying. So, when you look into the group and go, [OK that might fly in the face of what is needed for the person], I can get so focused sometimes on what the next thing is that I feel like we need that I might overlook some of the individual pieces, if that makes sense. I think that is something I got to watch out for in my weaknesses. I feel like I am trying to grow as a leader all the time you know in any way that I can and so I suppose that is another strength, but I also think that everyone has leadership blind spots too and aren’t sure what their weaknesses are and you got to figure out what are the things you cannot see. Does that make sense?

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah, it does. It is a good answer! What, or who, has been your greatest influence?

Scott Rubin: Hm. Greatest leadership influence. Am I allowed to say Jesus?

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah! Go ahead! Scott Rubin: I do not know what kind of class this is, but I really do think that that is true from what I read about the way that Jesus led. Now, honestly, a few years ago, I probably would have said a personal influence probably would have been Bill Hybels, but then the reality of that is, and I would say even still, for influence, I would say he was still a significant influence for me because again, I think influence can be positive or negative. If you misuse your leadership ability or if you have blind spots that you are unwilling to look at then that is still an influence on me, but maybe for a cautionary, you know, (don’t let yourself be more than you ought to be) if that makes sense. So, I guess that is one that I know personally, and one that I know but cannot see, so to speak.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah, I like both of those. So, leaders help turn ideas into action and also empower others. How do you feel that you and your staff at Impact accomplish this well?

Scott Rubin: I think that is totally true, I love it too, you know, turning ideas into action because everything starts as an idea, right? (We should do this or we should try that or we should do global serving trips or we should have student leadership or whatever) and so I think it starts with a big picture, like it starts with trying to figure out, what are the right ideas and what are the places that the organization needs most next. And then, try to do that with everyone around the circle. I feel that everyone on the team is there for a reason, everyone is there on purpose. And then trying to say, well and some of those best ideas, I think, are ones that like when people say, (whose idea was that)? and it kind of started from one person, but then it kind of got shifted around into like seven different iterations of whatever the first person said, but its changed into something, but it comes from a brainstorm of people saying, (well what about this or what if we took that and did kind of a thing). So, to me, that is most of the fun of leading with a team and that is why I love what I get to do because I get a team of people and I can say, (what do you think and what have you seen and how do you imagine this working or what do you perceive the people need in the next season). So those kinds of conversations, those are the best for me and I think people sometimes think, (oh don’t you hate meetings) but if they are the right meetings, all they are really is guiding conversations about trying to figure out how to actionize something. If the meeting is actually turning an idea into an action, I love that because that is just a scheduled conversation about how to make something awesome. I think that a leaders job amidst that is pulling ideas out of everybody.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah, and with Impact I remember being a part of some of those. Like when we tried to reinvent the look of Impact and you brought students in too and had us all share ideas.

Scott Rubin: Yeah, and that is what we need to do more of. We think we are trying to do more of that in these days ahead, and we are making some shifts in these next couple months that you are going to be hearing about that make you think, (ok we need to have student kind of weigh into that as well). Because it is not just staff leading and that kind of thing, if we are doing it right.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah, awesome. Were you called into leadership or did you seek it out?

Scott Rubin: Great question. So, when it comes to student ministry, I got invited to lead in student ministries before I ever, and actually I did not think that that was what I supposed to be doing and so my initial response was, (no thank you). But I will say this, from the time of when I was a teenager and someone kind of like identified leadership in me, I was like (I do not know if I believe this or think that’s true about me) but then you know just trying to discern and listen, and so I guess initially I had opportunity so maybe I was called into it, but then when you have your ear to the ground to see what God wants, I think you start to listen and say, (what do you want me to do with that) but at the end of the day, if your job is to or if your desire is to really use your leadership to serve people then it is like you almost don’t have a choice of like going, (you know what, I need to serve and if that is what will serve people, I will step in and do it). So, I was called and after that I started to seek out what God would want me to do more and more.

Tiffanie Bohrer: In college was that your idea or intention going in?

Scott Rubin: No no no, when I went to college I was going to be a veterinarian.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Oh really! I did not know that!

Scott Rubin: Is that med hilarious? That is why I went to Michigan State because they have a great med school and I would say probably six months into that I was like, (I don’t know if I want to do that) and so I ran for dorm president and did somethings like that where I didn’t have to have a leadership gear but I didn’t really know. I started volunteering in student ministries at willow which ultimately led to the job that I do. I was never going to make that my job. It did not sound like that was could make me a lot of money so I thought I was going to do something that was going to make me a lot of money and that I would volunteer somewhere and help out at the church, but God said, (nope we are going to do it a different way), so I ended up where I am at.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Okay, cool! Yeah, I did not know that.

Scott Rubin: Yeah, I did not intend on it, did not intend on it.

Tiffanie Bohrer: How have you learned from obstacles and challenges that you have faced?

Scott Rubin: Oh gosh, and again I am trying to find a way to say this that does not sound like its cliché. I think this is, I think that obstacles and challenges are probably the best teacher even though nobody likes it, if you know what I am saying. It shows you and it like forces your hand on how to be creative, how to rely on God for the things you need to. So, I would say that I think you still can lead when things are going well, but I feel like obstacles and challenges, it forces you into thinking differently, it forces you into broadening your mind, and pushes you in ways. I guess kind of like athletics or whatever when you got to practice and push yourself past limits or whatever. I think it is kind of the same if that makes sense. I hate obstacles, but I am always like, (God, mow down all the obstacles and take away all the limits) but it doesn’t always work that way.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah. Do you feel it is important to delegate? If so, why and when and how do you do so?

Scott Rubin: So, absolutely, it is important to delegate and for two key reasons. The first one I will say is, all of us are way too small to accomplish, I mean if you are able to accomplish your dreams in your own, then I think your dreams are too small, because I think that the best things are done in teams or groups and so I feel like that is limiting from the first part. And the second part is, when you delegate things I think it is one of the best ways for people to learn things. When people say, (you know, I cannot delegate with that person. They would not do it as well as I would do it and that is garbage because if you tried to do everything and would not hand off anything because you thought you could do better, well first off you would never hand anything off, but then the second part is that you would never help anybody get any better and if somebody can do something, I don’t know, 75 or 80 percent as good as you can do it then you should hand it off to them and help them do it and then you will get more done and they will get more learning. So, you cannot do it without, now there are ways to do that that you are not necessarily asking about but delegation does not mean just tossing it to somebody and going, (good luck). Like I think delegation is hard when you do it right because you are really trying to help somebody succeed. That is what I get to do a lot of these days and I think it is pretty awesome. Nick Scheske, and I do not know how well you know him, but he is fantastic! He is half my age and there are some things where I am like, (ok I got to figure out how to help you do this in a different way), but to watch how God has grown him and others like him, it is amazing. So, 100 percent delegation. If there is a leader who does not delegate, I would question whether they are actually a leader.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah, awesome. How do you measure success and how do you learn from failure? Scott Rubin: How do you measure success? Well I guess it all comes back to ultimately having clarity on what you are trying to achieve, right? So, if you know what you are trying to achieve from the very beginning when you talk about taking ideas and putting them into action, if you know exactly what that was then A: you are a good leader because you can define it and B: you will know if you are a good leader if you actually got there. So, I think that so much of it is just clarity. Two words that I use a lot when it comes to leadership when I meet people is clarity and care. Those are, you know if I can be clear on what I feel we are trying to do and if I can care about people as we are going along amidst the rest of it. If you are missing one of those, I think you are in trouble. So, defining success has to be like, (did we clearly get where we needed to go and did we care for people a lot the way)? Like if we get somewhere and accomplished it but people said, (this sucks like this was no fun to be a part of or like I didn’t feel I got better or whatever) and I think that goes hand in hand with this is how you learn from what are the places where you were not clear and where did people not feel cared about in the midst of it and them moving forward with that and so, I don’t know if that makes sense but you have to learn from failure because you have to and you should fail I think and it is like popular to say, (oh whatever) but it is hard to do, right? Nobody likes to, but then when you fail you go, (ok what went wrong or what could we have done better or what did we learn from or where did we get confused)? Is this kind of stuff along the lines, Tiffanie? I mean I feel like these are ok?

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah, these are all really great answers!

Scott Rubin: Ok, just want to help you do the best you can on this.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Thank you! What advice do you have for building relationships and trust in an organization?

Scott Rubin: Let me think on that one as well. I think that it really does come down to you honestly care deeply about the people you are trying to lead and then the second thing is that it takes work to figure out different people and different ways and you have to study people like what works for one person and what works for the next person. So, you got to be a student of the people that you are with and you got to build a trust. I mean, I think that was in the question. If you do not have trust, you do not have anything and I think that true in any relationship that matters. You know, if your mom and dad do not have trust with each other then their marriage, I think cannot go anywhere and it’s the same thing when I am on a team with people, if we cannot trust each other, and that does not mean we always get along or agree, but trust means that I can say, (hey I do not know about that or I am not sure I agree with that or that made me feel a certain way when you did that and that is not cool), but you can only do that with trust and if you do not have trust you do not have anything. So, it is one person at a time and it is one conversation at a time. It takes more time than I wish it did. But it is all those things and its essential and it is hard to do. The other thing I would add to that is it also takes admitting when you make a mistake because some leaders I think want to act as if they never make mistakes and I think there is not a lot worse than when somebody makes a mistake and everybody knows but the leader will not admit it.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Yeah, and I think even us as small group leaders in Elevate got to have some good practice with this, like especially with our sixth graders at the beginning. Like, we did not have a lot of trust just because we did not know each other and it took time to get to that place.

Scott Rubin: And that is where you see it, right? When you start to know everyone and people start to trust you and they know you are going to be there then they go, (ok this person isn’t going to bail on me) and you saw even through Impact, I cannot remember how many small group leaders you had, but like after a while you start to go, (can I trust people based on past leaders I have had) and then you go, (ok well I am going to decide whether I can trust you or not) and sometimes you come in at a deficit because someone has had an experience where someone were not able to trust a leader.

Tiffanie Bohrer: How has Willow Creek made an impact in the way that you lead?

Scott Rubin: Oh gosh, in a million ways. And when I say that, I mean in good ways and in bad ways. You know, just being able to observe, I have had leaders who I felt like really cared about me and I have had other leaders who I feel like they were more concerned with how their position or perception or something else and so that has shaped me. Honestly things like the Global Leadership Summit, you can maybe put to high of an emphasis on leadership, but when it is missing it is really hard as well. So, I think willow has tried to do that and trying to say, (how do we learn about leadership and how do we become better leaders) and even this past year like when there was a giant leadership failure. It has impacted me and even though I still do not know the ins and outs of everything that happened but I go, (ok what can I tell and what was helpful or what was harmful in the midst that and how do I avoid similar mistakes) and even if I do not know exactly what happened, what are the things that I perceive that could have happened in ways that I go, (ok I got to make sure I do not end up in that same space) if you know what I am saying.

Tiffanie Bohrer: How was your shift from just being the director of Elevate to student ministries as a whole? Like, did that change how you led since its two different complete age groups?

Scott Rubin: Yeah, and it was even more than the age groups, Tiffanie. It was essentially the responsibilities. So, I had the group of people that I supervise doubled and so what I had to do with that is say, (who are the people that I can honestly and actually give good leadership to and then how can I delegate to other people in places that I can). But then, even beyond that the hard part was just spreading me thinner and you know I love knowing small group leaders and knowing students and all that and it just made me more limited in how many people I can do that for. So that was really really hard but the need was so great there and without going all the way into it, the previous era in Student Impact there were some ways that Student Impact was led in the days before I kind of took over in the day to day stuff that I feel like really hurt some people and scarred some people. So back to what I was saying, like when you have to come in and you have to, you have to kind of ask what the history has been. So that has been hard part of going, and elevate honestly got to the place where it was thriving and just so fun and not like it was easy and not like it was perfect, but the reason I kept doing it was we kept thinking of more ideas, we kept thinking of more ways to help middle schoolers. It was super fun, but then you know with Impact, oh gosh we took something that’s was in a struggle and we are still in the midst of building it back up that way. So, that is a great question, Tiffanie but the last thing I would say about that is that is part of leadership is leadership in addition to influence is solving problems. That is part of what a leader does and then this is not original from me, I heard this once but I thought it was excellent is the definition of leadership or the results of great leadership is not having no problems, and like I used to think that if I could lead well id make all the problems go away, but this person said to me was that the result of good leadership is not no problems but it is just new problems. So, if you are not a great leader, you will spend all your time trying to solve the same problems and you could never figure out or make progress on those problems. But when you are a good leader, you solve problems and you look up and now have different problems. And so at least from that angle it is not boring because you go, (oh look at that, a different problem and something else to solve), but I used to think being a good leader was to make all the problems goes away, but then I realized that may not actually be it. But I love that, I actually think it helpful for me to go like, (ok I just get new problems when I solve problems). You are never done with problems.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Alright, I have one more question for you. What do you want your legacy to be?

Scott Rubin: Oh gosh, I feel like this is one of those questions where I should have some profound answer to, but I would say this because I have thought a little bit about it. I would love if my legacy, if when people thought about me maybe even more than anything about Elevate or Impact, they would see some of that in my boys. I feel like that leadership is in families and in friendships and in whatever else. I would love for my legacy to be, and I get emotional if I think about it for too long, but for Tanner and Dawson and Brock to be able to treat people well and serve people well and care about people well. Maybe they will lead some kind of something at some point in time like organizational or maybe they will just try and serve people that they know and it would not be in an official leadership capacity or position but if I could pick anything at all, that would be what I would hope for first and then secondarily would be that people could in some way have seen a little bit of the way that Jesus tried to lead in the way that I tried to be because if we do not point back to the King, like this is not about me being a good leader or anyone else being a good leader. I think it is about the way that we are loved so deeply and how that changed everything and so, does that make sense? If I could be seen in my boys then that would be awesome and anything else would just be bonus.

Tiffanie Bohrer: Awesome! Thank you so much for doing this. It was a great help!