Interview with Hal Cato, December 3, 2018

ï"¿Amanda Wood: Thank you so much for meeting with me today. I guess first to start, describe what Thistle Farms as an organization does and then what you, as CEO of the organization, do specifically.

Hal Cato: Thistle Farms helps women survivors of trafficking, prostitution, and addiction basically have a second chance at life, and we do it through three ways. We offer safe and supportive housing for up to two years, a meaningful job where they can recover financially, and then this, sort of, life-long sisterhood of support to make sure that they always stay on a positive path. As CEO, my job is just to provide overall strategic direction for the agency and where we are going: to make sure that we are financially healthy and have the resources we need to be a representative in the community, engage our board of directors.

AW: And you were brought on two years ago, is that right?

HC: It has been about three-and-a-half now.

AW: Alright, awesome. What part of your personal biography or your background led you to this position?

HC: I think it was a combination; I have spent about half my career since college in the private sector starting and growing businesses, and then the other half in the nonprofit sector, so it was just kind of a weird intersection. And suddenly Thistle Farms approached me because they needed to hire a CEO, and no one had ever been in this job before, and it was just a really good combination for someone. I just came from a sales and ops meeting where we were doing projections for the first quarter of 2019 and to go from that to, I will leave here and I will go over to Magdalene house and meet with all the residents. So, it is just a good combination of feet grounded in mission, but the curiosity to try to drive a profitable business at the same time. Not many organizations do that.

AW: How often do you meet with the residents at Magdalene house?

HC: Once a month. I see them all the time, the ones who work here. Not all of them work here, only--let us see, maybe right now about close half of them work here; the other half are not ready yet.

AW: What would you say--what experiences have shaped you most as a leader?

HC: Just in general or at Thistle Farms?

AW: Just in general.

HC: I think having really good mentors early on who I admired, and I learned from. I learned some good lessons from that; that was critical because nobody knows what they are doing at first. And I think being--not believing that I have to have every answer. There is just no way you can. And knowing how to build relationships with people who probably do have the answer, or if they do not, they will help you figure it out. So, that goes along way, especially when you are running something as complex as Thistle Farms. And then last is I think, I learned a long time ago that people do not care how much you know until they know how much you care. If I came in here thinking, "I got all the answers, and I am the CEO, and I will fix this," and all that, it would not work. They have to know why I am here. I think a good leader has to be a little vulnerable and willing to let them see you for who you really are.

AW: I know you said you have been here three-and-a-half-years. Are there any experiences that you would be willing to discuss that have changed your view of leadership? Was that a mentality you had coming in or was that something you kind of learned throughout being here?

HC: I had that mentality coming in, but it was really refined here because you are--let us be honest, I am a middle-aged white guy coming in to an organization that is historically been female-led, and we have eighty-two employees and five guys? I have never been through addiction; I have family members who have. I could not be any more unrelatable to the general population we serve and employ if I tried, but it is my job to make myself relatable.

AW: In our class--I guess I should have explained a little bit what class I am here for. It is called Intro to Global Leadership Studies, which is a degree that Belmont University has to give people who want to be leaders a very broad foundation of studies. So, we take classes in psychology and communication, or history and theology, business--it is very wide-spread. In this particular class that is just, sort of an intro, we read a lot of different books about leadership, and one of the books we read posed this question of the idea of leadership being an inherent trait or more something you learn and pick up and grow in along the way. So for you personally, would you say that you were born to lead, it was just always in you, or was it more you learned along the way that this was a position and a role you could see yourself assuming?

HC: A little bit of both honestly. I do not feel like I was born to lead, and I certainly really was not a leader in high school or all that much in college. I think I realized that if you are really passionate about something, it is a lot easier to lead because people see it in you and they will want to follow you. Nobody wants to follow that they can tell is just present from nine-to-five, and it is a paycheck. I think that is when it really became alive for me is when I started realizing that was where I was happiest and where my real skills were and where my heart lied and the center of who I am.

AW: How would you characterize your leadership style? I know you said a general philosophy--

HC: I think my leadership style is always try to be very approachable and accessible, focused, especially in terms of making sure people understand the two or three things that matter the most and what is important and what we can let go. I am really competitive, which surprises a lot of people, and I think you need a certain competitive streak in you to do this. I am not as methodical as I probably should be; I lead a lot more with the heart and the gut than I do with my mind.

AW: Have you been criticized for that before?

HC: Yes, I have because they will be like, "Okay, you are being too soft," or--especially when you are dealing with really vulnerable populations, and you have to make hard decisions.

AW: I never thought about that aspect of it, just letting your heart lead because I feel like in an organization like this, that would probably dictate most of the decisions, right? Or you would want it to at least?

HC: It does unless we are putting others at risk or our reputation at risk or the brand at risk, then it is an easy--and I have gotten myself in some dangerous situations, too, because I am trying to help women and go in places where I should not have gone. I mean, geographically, unsafe communities.

AW: How have you learned from obstacles and challenges you have faced both in your leadership here at Thistle Farms or in prior leadership roles?

HC: I think you always learn from the things that did not go quite as you expected and the things that were successful, so anytime we do not hit a goal or something does not go quite right or a meeting did not feel quite right or whatever, I always try to stop and reflect and really think a lot about, "Okay next time I will do this," and mentally note it and write it down so I have notes. I do a lot of postmortem analysis and thinking. I benchmark a lot against people I respect, with people I respect, organizations I respect. I read a ton, especially when I got here. I did not know anything about manufacturing and production and e-com and all those things, but I had to learn pretty quickly.

AW: So what was your immediate prior position to this?

HC: Immediately prior to this, I had started a software company that I ran for almost five years, and I sold it. Before that, I ran the Oasis Center for eleven years.

AW: So quite a switch there. Do you feel as a leader it is important to delegate? And if so, why and specifically when and how? What does that look like here for you at Thistle Farms?

HC: We have five very different departments: residential, café and catering, production and sales, global, and national network. If I did not delegate, it would be a disaster. You have to. The key is, for me, making sure it is that I have got four or five people around me that I totally trust. I meet with them every week to check in and support and see what they need from me and make sure that I am here to help them and not get in their way. I am a pretty good delegator, unless there is somebody who just cannot quite--I know if I gave it to them, it was not going to be done the way I wanted it and I will just do it myself. And that is sometimes an okay thing and then other times, you are just enabling someone who for some reason they are not performing quite right.

AW: I know you said you are competitive. Did that ever conflict with the side of you that knows, "I need to delegate this task"?

HC: Oh, all the time. I was in here Saturday doing something like, "Why am I doing this? This is not my job." But I knew what I wanted the report to look like, and I just thought, "I will do it. I will just take care of it. I will get it done."

AW: We have kind of touched on this already, just in you explaining several things, but what would you say are your professional strengths and then some weaknesses also that you are able to recognize within yourself?

HC: Professional strengths, let me think--ability to build relationships with people. That is so key is building relationships where people trust you and they know you. I think the ability to cut through a lot of noise and data and really look for the signal and what is most important and what we need to be doing. Lifting others up; I am a big believer in, you find the good and praise it, especially in the nonprofit sector where they are not--nobody is in this building because of the stock options or the pay. Recognition is really important, but it has got to feel meaningful and not just, "Here is your participation badge" kind of thing. Weaknesses would be, I do have a hard time focusing. I can have a hard time just shutting the door and doing that head-down. Especially because--I mean, right now they have seen you, but at least five people have walked up to the glass and turned around and walked away because they knew what was going on. But it is like channel changing. I do not know if you have ever sat on a couch with somebody who just will not--they do that. And you are like, just play the one station. That is my job.

AW: Or when you are in the car and someone is just constantly switching through the radio or songs, and you are like, "Can you just pick one?"

HC: That feels like my job so many days where I had a thousand conversations, but I did not get one meaningful thing done, and that is my fault. I own that. I think a weakness of mine is inability to say no. There will be so many times I will be driving to something, and I am like, "Why did I not just say no?"

AW: You touched on this: leaders help turn ideas into action and empower others to do so in their own lives. So, Thistle Farms, I know, is a company that is focused on helping women overcome awful situations--you as a leader within your company, how do you encourage and empower those you work with to go through that process of coming up with an idea and turning it into action and making something happen from that?

HC: I think most of it, for me and here, is bringing the right people together and facilitating the good conversation and knowing how to pull out the two or three takeaways and zero in on what we are going to do. I rarely make decisions unilaterally; that does not go over well here unless it is one of the times where they are like, "I do not care, just decide," and I know that they mean it. You also have to know when they say that and they do not mean it and be able to deal with the consequences.

AW: What are two or three action steps you believe are essential to enable others to be successful? So if you had to lay out a plan of do this (one, two, three) and you will be successful, what would that one, two, three be?

HC: Well it always starts with try; if you are not willing to try and to take the first step, it is never going to happen. So making them, or giving them the self-confidence to try and to take the first step, and that you have got their back and if they fail, it is alright, you tried, because otherwise, who knows. I think that is key. I think getting people to where they can feel small victories along the way, and that really does build up their confidence and their self-esteem where they see what they can do. And then the third I think, I would say--just thinking about the women here, and what means the most is not overwhelming--not setting someone up for failure. If I know that they cannot do this, I would never put a woman in a role that I knew she was going to fail. And that happens a lot of time in society where someone is a really good teacher, we will promote them to being a principal, but they should not be principal.

[skip ahead to 18:50]

AW: How would you personally say you measure success versus failure?

HC: Oh Lord, that is a really hard question. Well success is easy. You did something you did not think was possible, you hit a goal that you set; I mean, there is a lot of easy answers. How do I measure failure is if we leapt into something before we were ready; I see a lot of people fire, ready, aim, and letting people jump out there too soon before our ducks were in a row. That is a failure, especially if we ran into something without a good plan. I just want to know that we are ready. I think doing the same mistakes over and over again is a failure. Do it once, it is okay, but if you do it a couple times, I think that is a failure.

AW: If you practice the wrong thing over and over again, it is still going to be wrong.

HC: Yeah. And I think overcommitting and underdelivering can be a failure.

AW: So how, then, do you learn from those?

HC: I am always like, "Okay, how did that meeting go? How did that interaction go?" So I think you just learn by, "Okay, what did not work out?", and you just keep pivoting until you have got it. There is really no formula or magic feather; it is just being willing to get up and try it again. It is the people who are not "in the arena" that will never know, but failing to get in there is failure in my mind.

AW: You said a professional strength that you see in yourself is your ability to build relationships and build trust, so what advice do you have for others who hope to be in leadership roles for building relationship and trust within an organization that they may be the leader of?

HC: Always, always, always keep your word, and if you say you are going to do something, you do it. I think being willing to do any crap job that needs to be done. I mean, you saw me bussing tables when you were waiting there. People have to see that you are willing to get down, and nothing is too good for you; you are definitely not better off than anybody else. I think getting to know people as people, employees as people--knowing how Cheles kid is doing and knowing that Marcia is having a housing crisis and I am going to help her get an apartment. It is just taking the time to care.

AW: What does--this is a very broad question, but what does leadership mean to you?

HC: Leadership is inspiring others to achieve a common goal, inspiring others to come together and achieve a common goal that none of us could have achieved on our own. It is about creating.

AW: I like these types of questions, so who or what has been your greatest influence in your life?

HC: I would say my grandmother early in childhood because she was the stable place that I would go to every day after school, and she was the one who encouraged me. She was the one who took me along doing Meals-on-Wheels all the time where I got to see what service looked like and felt like. So early childhood, she probably had the biggest influence on me. My first real boss out of college who took an interest in me and made me feel that there was something there, that I was meant for something bigger than I was thinking. She now lives in Seattle; she is retired. But that was my first mentor. And then I think when I was at Oasis Center is when I was working with so many young people, three or four of whom are still very much a part of my life and seeing what real grit and resilience looked like. If they can do what they are doing, then I can do this. They were inspiring me to get out of my comfort zone a lot.

AW: If you could sit down and have coffee with one historical leader, dead or alive, who would it be and why?

HC: Oh my gosh--I love those kinds of things, who would be the ideal four-top at a dinner party kind of things.

AW: You can say top three if it is too hard to narrow it down.

HC: Abraham Lincoln for sure. I love Abraham Lincoln. Always have. I am fascinated.

AW: We did a case study on him in our class; we watched the movie.

HC: Absolutely. And that guy over you, Martin Luther King, for the record. Those two are phenomenal men in my book. Also, anybody that really was at the forefront of a movement. That is who I would love to spend time with. But I would say Abraham Lincoln and Martin Luther King are the two that I think about the most. I do not have any of his books over there right now, but I have a whole two shelves at home that is Lincoln biographies and studies.

AW: With the idea of movements--Thistle Farms is very big in the social aspect of looking at this issue that a lot of women go through and figuring out, "How can we help? What part can we do?" Outside of that, are there any social movements that you are just very passionate about that do not necessarily show up as much in your work here at Thistle Farms, but you very much have thoughts on them and want to see change happen within them?

HC: Oh my gosh, such a good question. There is a couple of things I am very passionate about. I am very passionate about kids in foster care and how we support them and how we help them age out. I am just devasted for how we treat immigrants in this country. It is not who we are. I think you do need a big wall, but a really big gate, too. I think it is both-and, not one or the other. Those are the two that are probably most important to me that have nothing to do with my work here at Thistle Farms.

AW: Could you ever--this might be a completely ridiculous question, but could you ever see the idea of the foster care issue that you brought up ever integrating with your work here at Thistle Farms?

HC: We see a lot of women who went through the foster care system, and they were sexually molested in a number of homes. I do not know how many of my employees were in back to back foster care, but there is a lot of them. Right now, we do not work with minors who have been trafficked; we have looked at it, and it is a whole different model than what we currently have. But that might be an intersection there, or focusing on young women who have been trafficked who eventually fall into state custody.

AW: And I guess my final question: what do you want your legacy to be?

HC: Just that I was someone who cared, and honestly it sounds like a cliche, but that somebodys life was changed because I lived. It sounds so--mrrrrr--when I say it out loud, bit it is true. Gosh, what is the name of the New York Times columnist who did resume virtues versus obituary virtues--David Brooks. Have you read that?

AW: I have not read it, but we just watched his speech that he gave in another class that I am in. We watched his speech on it.

HC: It is fascinating.

AW: Yes, it was. It was really interesting.

HC: So I do not care about the resume virtues, just the obituary virtues.

AW: Wow, that is so funny that you brought that up, and I just watched that. Is there anything else you want to share about--

HC: No, this has been good! Good questions.

AW: Thank you very much. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to meet with me.

HC: You are welcome.