Interview with Brian Shivers, December 5, 2018

ï"¿Alaina Slack: Thank you so much for meeting with me today and letting me get the chance to interview you. So you are a pastor at Second Presbyterian Church in Indianapolis and you head the youth ministries of the church, your official title would be the Senior Associate Pastor for Spiritual Life. What does all this entail and what does it mean for you on a daily basis. Please explain your role.

Brian Shivers: I oversee and supervise all of the education ministries in the church from cradle to grave, so from infants all the way up. I supervise all of those individuals that have those areas of ministry as their focus, so that would be six different people and I also have then programmatic responsibility that I am involved directly with the programs for youth from middle school to high school and also then college aged students. So what does it mean on a day to day basis? My days are never the same I spend a decent amount of my time with my colleagues talking about their ministry and what they are doing and their concerns and that is probably about 40% of my time and then I also spend a decent amount of time planning and programming in youth ministry and then in addition I have several other community roles that I also play that are an extension of my work at Second.

AS: Can you expand on a couple of those? Maybe give us the one you are most interested in.

BS: Yep, so I will do, let me do the three big ones. I serve on the board and the executive committee for the Center for Interfaith Cooperation. One of my big passions is interfaith work and helping people from multiple faiths learn about one another and also work together. So thats one. I am serving on a volunteering committee for a new organization that is working in Indianapolis thats also interfaith and we are focusing on homelessness and home insecure folks and how we might as communities of faith help better that situation for the community of Indianapolis and the people that are facing those insecurities. And then I also serve on whats called The Committee on Ministry, thats a Presbytery committee, so part of the broader Presbyterian church of all of central Indiana and The Committee on Ministry works for the church around issues such as making sure we are supporting ministers, we work with new ministers coming in, we work with churches to help churches make sure that they have all the things that they need and if there is anything that is a problem we help them with that.

AS: Awesome, those are important. I always knew you were involved with the interfaith thing, but those other things I guess we just look past when you are part of the other parts of your life.

BS: Yeah and its hard, you know we do not necessarily communicate that all the time.

AS: What part of your personal biography or background led you to this position?

BS: Oh man, so lets see. My grandfather was a pastor in the Assembly of God church, so he was my earliest example of what it meant to be a pastor and I felt a call to ministry when I was in my teens and specifically to work with young people, work with youths. So I went to, my undergrad degree is in Christian Education and â€"

AS: And you got that at Marion right?

BS: I got it at Taylor, Taylor University. So the thought was I would go into youth ministry as a career and that is what I have done. I felt a call to ordained ministry later. So that was- I always said I would not go into seminary until it was something that I, and this is a double negative on purpose, could not, not do. I went back to seminary in 2004 to become ordained and went through the ordination process and since then, since my ordination in the presbytery church I have been asked to fulfill some different roles that are much more of an expanded portfolio for me. That is how I ended up in this position.

AS: How long did that full ordination process take, how long of your life was that?

BS: So seminary for me was six years but its usually three if you are going to do it full time so I did not do it full time, I did it part time and the ordination process was three years, well its two full years but it usually takes people three. That involves some extra testing and then a year of discernment and then a year of candidacy and then you are certified ready for a call.

AS: Wow. If you had not of gone into ministry, what would you have done?

BS: I always thought I would teach, so that was my- that is actually what I thought I was going to do when I went to college and teach either high school or college is kind of where I was thinking about. But now, I want to be published at some point in time of my life so we will see how long that takes for me to get there.

AS: Well I am sure you can do it.

BS: Yeah, we will see.

AS: What cultural identities or experiences are most salient for you?

BS: Ask that again?

AS: What cultural identities or experiences resonate most for you, what are most important to you?

BS: Man, the reason that I am passionate about social justice and things like racial reconciliation etc. has to do with growing up in a diverse setting and not realizing my privilege until I became much older, much much much older and doing the work of identifying privilege and doing the work of trying to unpack that and then also do the work to dismantle it where I can, the systems that perpetuate it that keep other people away from those privileges. Those are the things that are really informative for me. A lot of that has been formed by my work with the interfaith community but also my travel experiences have really changed me in ways that I cant ever not be changed. So I cannot go back, kind of like that -once you see it you cannot unsee it-. So those experiences for me- and one of those probably, I do not know how detailed you want- but I grew up in Marion, Indiana. Marion, Indiana is racially diverse, but it has a really infamous history, the last public lynching north of the Mason Dixon line happened at the town square in Marion and it was something that, even though it happened 35 years before I was born, 40 years before I was born it still had life in the city. When I was in elementary school one of my absolute best friends was a guy by the name of Simmie Cotton and Simmie was a, he has since passed away, but he lived in the projects, he was an African American guy from the projects and had government housing. I did not realize that when I was a kid. So navigating the memories of growing up in an environment where I went to his house, I played basketball in his neighborhood, did all those things and never really thought about the difference that was there. And the funny thing is, you can say you know, Well I never saw the difference, but the tragedy actually, I would say Alaina, is I did not see the difference. I would of much rather been made aware in a healthy way than to have been allowed to remain ignorant. So now that I, when I became more and more aware of it I realized that man, I have got a lot of work to do inside myself and to identify some of those things, name them, and work with them and work through them and invite conversation partners that will push me. So all of that stuff has been really important to me.

AS: I did not know that story, thats awesome. And you said that he has passed? I am sorry.

BS: Yeah he died three years ago of kidney failure and you know it is also actually a part of privilege, like he did not have access to the health care I have access to he did not have, still as a 47 year old man and yeah it just keeps- it still is and will always be there.

AS: What experiences have most shaped you as a leader?

BS: You guys. And for the sake of your recording, my work with young people who wont let me get away with- hahaha I was going to say something that you probably dont want on tape, if we were just talking I would have used a different phrase- but that wont let me get away with just saying something to say something and wont let me get away with things that are not supported. That has been the most amazing part, one of the most amazing parts of this journey for me, is the way that you guys teach me. People dont, I think that sometimes the young people that I work with do not believe thats happening but I promise you, tonight I will meet with, as you know, I will meet with our conformational leaders and I will meet with our confirmands and I will be pushed and it is important work to be pushed.

AS: I remember even the difference of going through that at their age and then years later when I was 18, being able to be a leader and I remember, yeah even then, looking at their questions and even their lack of questions and being like â€" keep going, keep going - and then when they did ask questions and it was challenging we [the leaders] would all look at each other and think thats awesome we were like â€" we do not know what to say but thats great, you are asking questions-. I can say for sure, which I am sure you already know you have definitely been very impactful for all of us.

BS: It is humbling and an honor to be engaged with these people that I get to work with every day and I mean that, its amazing.

AS: It is an honor for us. Alright, where were you called into leadership, or did you seek it because of held convictions?

BS: I think anybody thats a leader gets placed in places that make them uncomfortable and thats really important and you have to allow the discomfort to, you have to be okay in the discomfort. Theres a combination I would say of both of those things. You sometimes are asked to lead and you really are not- you do not feel prepared to do so and other times you go after something because you feel passionate about it and I think the combination is really healthy because youre, youre always being challenged to expand your own leadership ability, you dont- complacency is something isnt- if youre going to be an effective leader you cannot be complacent and you have to be willing to say Ive got room- I have not only room to grow, I have the necessity to do so. And that comes from- I have a professor who used to use this word- disequilibration, and it means being knocked off balance and those are the moments when you grow and that is true for me in leadership. When I find myself in a leadership position where I dont know what I am doing, I do not necessarily seek those out but they are incredibly helpful for me.

AS: How have you learned from obstacles and challenges you faced?

BS: Probably the most important thing that I have learned is to not take myself so seriously. Sometimes obstacles are there not to necessarily be overcome but to be wrestled with and I think that in, often in the United States we see obstacles as something to be overcome and we forget that sometimes its in the wrestling where the real transformation happens. So those two things are really important to me, being formed in my understanding of holding things loosely and being willing to learn from other people that are not like me. So I think- those are critical ideas for me. I try to live into them, I am not always great at it.

AS: What does leadership mean to you?

BS: Leadership to me means getting out of the way, so being in a position where you have the ability to influence a situation but not necessarily to make the situation yours. So getting out of the ways means I want other people to speak, I want other people to be heard, I want other people to feel like their voice is as important as anyone elses. I want other people to have access to the tables that I have access to. For me leadership is about finding ways that I can be a catalyst for those kinds of things and then allowing people to lead. I take more joy in watching you and Abbie lead communion than I do in leading communion. Does that make sense? Which is easier? Well of course it is always easier just to do the thing you know, but it is more fun, it is more enjoyable to help someone else discover it and then watch them do it the way they are going to do it. Because the beautiful thing about watching you two lead communion is that it is not the way that I would do it, and that is beautiful, its necessary right. Only in being able to say this is not mine to control, its mine to influence, but not control. Those are the two things that I would juxtapose against one another. You can be an influencer without being a controller. I think that is an important distinction.

AS: Yeah and a lot of people unfortunately mix those two and do not separate them.

BS: Yeah it is hard I think.

AS: So based on that, how would you characterize your leadership style? Clearly you are someone who likes to delegate.

BS: Yeah, so delegation but I would say I am a consensus builder and someone who enjoys team more than a bunch of opportunities for me to just lead by myself. I would rather be surrounded by a team of people that are doing it together. I think that thats one of the keywords is together. Thats something that is really important for my leadership style, is- I do not go there alone, we go there together. I love it when I watch my colleagues succeed and really live into what it is that they are called to do. I think that thats my leadership style, consensus building, working with a team and then as you said the delegation piece, letting other people do the work. And I guess I would use one example. So when we hired, so Tom just joined the youth ministry staff this year and when we hired Tom, one of things I said to him is â€" one of the reasons that, or not reasons, one of the things that I expect from you is for you to do the job that you have been hired to do. I am not going to do it and I am also not going to tell you how to do it. I am going to rely on you to ask me the questions because I dont not know what you do not know-. Those are really important things for me because I want the people I work with to know that I trust you and I want you to do the work.

AS: So enabling others to lead themselves.

BS: Yep, and do it in a way that, because I think theres a way that you can do that where you are trying to replicate yourself a bunch of times and then there is a way to do it where you are saying I would have never thought to do it that way and isnt that wonderful. I love that second piece. Those are not the words I would have used. Thats not the way I would have done it. Thats not the order in which I would have done things but wow I learned something from that.

AS: That leadership style allows you to learn even more as a leader yourself, you get that much more back from that.

BS: A thousand percent.

AS: What are your professional strengths and weaknesses?

BS: I think they rest in the same place. I think my, my strengths are that I am very much a people orientated leader and that I want whats best for the people I am working alongside. The weakness, or the blind spot is that I am incredibly hard on myself and internalize things and so they kind of work in tandem with one another unfortunately or for fortunately whatever the case may be. Sometimes I do not see the ways in which I am internalizing someones disapproval or someones anxieties or someones lack of success. So they work in tandem. The Native Americans have an â€" many Native American tribes- have an idea of, its where we get the idea of spirit animals from. They have animals that they associate their own strengths with and one of the cool things is they also then identify where their blind spots are and also where the monster side of that animal might be. Each of us have both of those things, every strength has an identifiable weakness and that is really important for me to remember.

AS: I was going to say, from personal experience I can say that you are very good at seeing both sides and that is exactly where you went with that.

BS: Well I try to. When I am at my best I see it and when I am at my worst I am internalizing.

AS: What or who has been your greatest influence?

BS: My dad has been my greatest personal influence. He died 16 years ago, but the way he navigated life. He never allowed us to seem as perfect which I loved and his compassion for humans. His willingness to see other people is something that I have tried to emulate. The experiences that have most impacted my life as I said before I think are all, almost every single cross-cultural experience I have ever had has changed me in a way that I could have never imagined it changing me. So whether that is a religious cross cultural experience or traveling through another country or eating someome elses wonderful food from another place, they impact me in great ways.

AS: Leaders help to turn ideas into action and empower others. How do you accomplish this?

BS: I want people to know that they are seen and valued. I think that if the people with whom I work understand that I see them and value them not for what they bring but for who they are, that that brings out the best in who those people are and they know then that they are not being judged by their quote on quote productivity because I trust and value them as an individual. And then I guess when, there are moments when any leader has to confront someones short comings professionally, you can do it because the person knows you are not looking down on them as a person.

AS: It does not impact how you see them.

BS: Right, and yeah I have worked with people who do not value that style of leadership and it can- maybe its not that they dont value it, they dont understand it- and a leadership style has to grow out of who you are. It has to be authentic and organic. I cannot lead the way anybody else would lead. I think that some people see it as soft. And thats okay. I do not agree with that so it is okay that somebody else would think that but its not going to change the way that I lead. Not because I am convinced I am right all the time, its actually because I am convinced I have so much to learn. The only way that I have to learn- the only way I know how to learn is to be vulnerable, right. You cannot learn if you are going in and knocking things over, that is a really hard way to learn. So whether I am reading or engaging with people, if I can be, if I can go in with that understanding it allows me to be open to discovering things. You know its the same thing with a class. You sit in a class with a professor that you do not really like it is harder to learn sometimes but if you can somehow disengage from that I do not like this person and engage the material, you are going to learn something.

AS: Yeah it challenges you. That is a good example. That just resonated with me very well.

BS: Well it comes from my own experience.

AS: Do you feel it is important to delegate â€" well you have already said that you do feel it is important to delegate- so give us some examples of when or how you do that.

BS: So I guess I would say, I am trying to think of the best way to do it. So one example would be when my two closest colleagues that I work with, high school and middle school ministry there â€" you have seen this in action â€" there are times when I know the answer to someones question about what we are doing or are going to do, why were doing what were doing, but I would rather the answer come from the person that is in charge of that area then from me. Its in everything, even the little things. Like email conversation, somebody sends me an email and asks me a question that I could answer in three seconds or I could CC the email to the person that actually is responsible and they answer the email because now what that does is it transfers authority to them and its hard to remember to do that but I think that if you can remember to do that it empowers people and allows people to have ownership of the stuff they are supposed to have ownership of in the first place. It also avoids triangle-ing, I think thats one of the most destructive things, is when you come to me and you say hey I have got this concern about so and so doing thus and thus but you know dont tell them I dont wanna- and instead of just letting it end there we would have a conversation with that person, that is the most important thing and if those clear lines of work flow and authority are already lined out, its easier to do that work.

AS: I remember you always would say that stuff too about other students

BS: I do not know you would have to ask Tyler haha. I mean sometimes that is true, sometime I do not know.

AS: Are there any strategies or methods you implement with your team to strengthen them as leaders individually or as whole?

BS: Yeah I think so, so we spend a lot of time talking about- we spend as much time talking about why as we do what, or how. I want to make sure we all understand why we are doing something and so we talk about that a lot and I also want my colleagues to know that their understanding of the why is as important as mine is, so even though I might cast the original group vision, its much more beneficial then if we work together to continue to hone and craft it. Because then you are not trying to get somebody to buy in on something that you have developed. You have actually developed this together as a group and that is longer process, that is more intentional conversation, that is setting aside your own need to be right and working together to build something new. I think an example of that is when, again the people I work with the closest, when we are thinking about a retreat for instance and what we are going to do on a retreat we all three come in with a different understanding about what we are going to do on this retreat and what we are going to accomplish, and we will advocate for our own perspectives but the beautiful thing is that if we can all suspend the need to be right what we end up with at the end of the conversation is something better and more beautiful than that which any of us could come up with by ourselves. I think sometimes that is a harder way to lead but I think for me it makes more sense just based on my own personality. Not necessarily the right way, right, its just the way that makes sense for me.

AS: How do you measure success and how do you learn from failure?

BS: How do I measure success.. When I am at my best I measure success based upon the person, this is based upon what I do for a living, so I measure success based upon the person that is standing in front of me and what I mean by that is how is this person growing, being challenged, engaging the material, all those kinds of things. Do they know that they are loved, accepted, somebody believes in them? Do they know those things? Thats when I am at my best. When I am at my worst I measure success based only upon real measure and those are the, what some people would call low hanging fruit right. How many are in a space, how many compared to last year are in a space? Thats a measurable that is important, but it is not the most important. So how do I learn from failure? I wish I could say I learn really quickly from failure. I think- I go back to something I said earlier, when I am at my best, I am holding it lightly and so a failure does not feel like a personal failure, it does not feel like somehow my character is at question or my being is at risk. No it is just something I have done that did not work and so now you can ask, okay so what went well, what did not go well. Learning from failure I think comes from the evaluation part. Its suspending judgement, personal judgement on yourself. I think that is probably the most difficult thing right. Somehow, I am lesser than because I failed? No that is not true.

AS: What are two or three action steps you believe are essential to enable others to be successful?

BS: Two or three action steps that I have implemented that have helped other people to become successful. Is that what the question was?

AS: Yes.

BS: Okay, I just wanted to make sure I got it right. Most important one is listening to the people with whom I work. So that means- that takes time and intentional energy. Second, actually allowing people to do the work they have been hired to do. I am not doing that work. So trusting them to do that work, there is two. Three would be, I learned this from my colleagues, and you can read books about this and its not the same as experiencing it. People need to hear that their work is valued and that they are doing a good job. And those are not necessarily the same thing. So their work is valued is saying, what you are doing is important to this organization. They are doing a good job is being able to point to something very specific and say this thing that you did was amazing and I want to publicly tell you that. It takes intentionality but not great effort. It is intentional because when you see the person, you say it. It does not take great effort because you are going to see those people, you are not planning an additional meeting to just go tell somebody that they have done something well. So I think the difference between intention and effort- it is an intention thing and it becomes habit if you make yourself do it. Its just like anything else, the more you do it, the more you become it right. So I think those would be the three most important things for me.

AS: You are a leader within the church and within your field, what are other areas of your life that you have risen as a leader either in the past or present? Where else do you hope to be a leader?

BS: So the second one, I said that I would love to be published, I think that that is- the interesting thing is I could say the same thing about that as I just said about the other thing, it takes intention so I have to be intentional about doing it. That is a hope. Outside, I think that the interfaith community leadership part is something that has become really important to me and so that is something I went after intentionally and I am growing into more and more leadership in that area in the community of Indianapolis so that would be an example of place where I decided that I wanted to go after something and did and worked hard at paying attention to where I am needed and what work I can do.

AS: What advice do you have for building relationships and trust in an organization?

BS: I would use two words, I think. Clarity and then the second one I have already used, and it is intentionality. So clarity. As a leader you are expected to be able to set and cast a clear vison and being able to do so allows other people to understand whether or not they can buy in and it also helps them know where you are hoping to head. And also clarity when it comes to here is what I expect from you and making sure that I do not have hidden expectations in there, I want to name the expectations that I have and the ones that are real- so here is one of the hard things, knowing which expectations are reasonable expectations of someone in that position and what are expectations that are only built upon the way in which you would do something. So those are two different things and keeping those things separate is really important. So clarity, that is the first one. So intention, going back to what I said before, for me what intention means is moving towards something with purpose right, so I want the things that I do to be intentional, not accidental. There are a lot of accidents that happen that are happy accidents and that you can learn from. When I am setting out my goals I want there to be a certain level of intention of moving towards those things and the other one feeds it. So being able then to set a vision and a goal and you set it as something that is out there to move towards because if your statement of who it is that you are as a person or as a people or as an organization is only an explanation of who you currently are, if there is nothing aspirational about it then you become really lethargic. So there has to be something aspirational. You have to be moving towards something and there is a not yet to it. That not yet changes you because you begin to live as if the not yet is real. So I think those are the two things, the clarity and the intentionality.

AS: I feel like that probably reflects from your field, just the idea of knowing that there is always going to be a question. It is an unknown thing that keeps you going.

What do you want your legacy to be?

BS: Oh man. I think I would want someone to say… He saw me. That would be enough for me. Everything else I really dont- its not that I do not care its just that I think for the field that I am in that is the most important one.

AS: Well if it helps I can tell you that- and not just me but I know I can speak for others- that you have lived into that very well. I think we can all attest that our lives have been seen by you and by the people that work with you.

BS: Thank you.