Interview with Wayne Barnard, November 12, 2019

Taylor Leek:Hi my name is Taylor Leek and I am going to be interviewing Dr. Wayne Barnard of Belmont University Psychology Department. Today is November 12th 2019 at 12:00pm. So, first question: what part of your personal biography or background led you to this position or any other position that you would consider being a leadership?

Wayne Barnard:I think for any position I've been in I, I would qualify all of them at some level as a leadership position or of influence. Especially the professional positions I've been in post my either undergrad or specifically graduate school. I, it begins with having been reared by parents who were substantial leaders and influencers both in the community and in the church. Both of my parents were business professionals. I grew up in a family business. And so throughout my growing up years, I was seeing at a time when it wasn't really very popular, both my mother and my father in positions of leadership and in positions where they had influence on others, whether it was kind of peer influence with other leaders or people who would traditionally I put in quotes be considered subordinates.

Wayne Barnard:And making decisions about companies and personnel in people. And, having you know, leadership roles within our church, not just our community. And when I say community, you know, I'm talking about business, but I'm also talking about chamber of commerce the lion's club just, you know, organization after organization. So, that has an effect and has had an effect on all of my siblings, quite frankly. We kind of, it was kind of the expectation that you would put yourself out there that you would you know, assert yourself relative to taking on responsibility in a civic minded kind of way. So, then that opened opportunities, at least for me both in sports, but even more specifically in student government especially in junior high and high school. And then that just kind of morphed into college and taking on various leadership positions.

Wayne Barnard:You know, oftentimes even in high school you know, I did a lot of summer camp kind of work and I don't, I don't, I don't want this to sound the way it could come across if I'm not careful, but I will always at years younger than one would expect. I was finding myself kind of put forward as a leader and felt great permission to take on those opportunities, whatever they might be. And got some fairly positive feedback relative to these different types of leadership. And so, you know, that that just kind of keeps you moving in that direction and feeling like it's attainable. So then, you know, post undergrad, you know, I, I took a position at a pretty early age in a church and that led me to working in the prison system and, and kind of stepping out in a very unknown kind of place in asserting myself there never realizing, you know, I, I, it just never crossed my mind that something wasn't possible, which is interesting.

Wayne Barnard:And I would say that that's kind of the way I was reared is, you know just do it before that was a Nike slogan, you know? And so, yeah, that's what I did. And, and so early on stepping into places and I remember in my master's level training you know, one of my major professors saying, well, I want you to work with a team and, and develop a program for the state of Texas, a domestic violence diversion program for spouse abusers. And I'm like, okay, you know, and here I am, you know, barely 23 and wet behind the ears and I'm working with a population of people that I wouldn't have thought I would work with. And it was a great experience both for me and for them, likewise in the jail and prisons. And then, you know, moving on into the graduate school and every job that I applied for and, and was selected for just kept stepping into increasing levels of, of leadership and responsibility.

Wayne Barnard:Yeah. And I would say that having some you know, significant mentors, but more than anything, having an environment where I felt like it was an expectation that it was a possibility, maybe more so a probability and having people, you know, continue to affirm those things in me. I as I've, you know, not every situation was perfect. I, you know, I've had my moments where perhaps I was not quite as successful as I could have been for whatever reason, but yeah, just never felt pushed always more. It was kind of a pulling and guided yeah. Kind of focused attention in that particular,

Taylor Leek:Yeah. You grew up like with the presence of your parents, showing you kind of what leadership and what that role is. Do you think that had a significant impact on how you define leadership today?

Wayne Barnard:You know, it's a, it's a tired phrase, but it still has meaning for me, the idea of servant leadership or nowadays we talk a lot about transformational leadership as opposed to being just a transaction. It's meant to be transformative, both for the leader, but also for the organization or whatever the group might be in which one finds themselves, you know, as an influencer. And so I like to think that that was what was modeled before me that it was putting yourself out there, sacrificing yourself at times for the common good not, not for one's own purposes. Obviously, I derived a great deal of satisfaction and that would continue to put me in some pretty amazing places, but it was always intended to be for the good of the whole, whatever the whole might be. And I, I would say that's been true for my siblings as well.

Taylor Leek:Yeah. Are they also in positions of leadership in their own right?

Wayne Barnard:Oh Yeah, yeah. Without a doubt. Whether it's been, it's been political, it's been professional. It's been leadership roles in, in church and neighborhood, community, you know, civic kinds of roles. Yeah. Yeah.

Taylor Leek:Do you, so I know you kind of, I know you are Episcopalian. You, did you grow up Episcopalian or did you grow up in a different religion? And do you think different religions have different ideas of what leadership is?

Wayne Barnard:Oh, absolutely. I grew up in the churches of Christ which is a somewhat akin to the Baptist church and say, and in my growing up years women did not have the kind of leadership roles and opportunities they have now at church. And so publicly in terms of worship you know, you would not have seen women participating in my church, my mom on the other very strong woman and always led I would say in positions that were quote allowed. But then I think it's safe to say, kind of push the envelope. And I can remember times when you know, she was teaching or leading or doing whatever in a context would not necessarily be considered a place where a woman could do those things. And though there might've been some contention you know, was just kind of pushing that in the loop.

Wayne Barnard:And so even while still in the churches of Christ, my family was kind of kind of moving things forward and and so therefore I did and thought that that was kind of the thing to do and it was only within the last 15 years that, that I've the churches of Christ number one have changed dramatically. Now, women's roles are such music, the whole thing has changed. But it's been within the last 15 years that I've made decisions to move toward Anglicanism first because of our time in, in England the UK. But, but then as we came back and, and just making a choice to be a part of the Anglican community here, it just kind of fits better overall with how I think and, and how I practice faith.

Taylor Leek:Yeah. I grew up Episcopalian as well. And so I kind of saw that leadership. I didn't grow up during the time period that you did, but I saw the leadership that was going on between what my dad grew up in the Baptist church, very Southern Baptist church, and watch how I grew up. So I understand that position. I think the next question that I want to ask if you could go back in time and restart over, would you take the same pathway that you have taken now? Do you think your experiences are salient and they have provided you with just valuable memories or would you try to do different pathways?

Wayne Barnard:That's always a great question. My wife Mimi and I talk about that quite a bit. I probably if I think much of what I've done and experienced would be very similar. There are a lot of different domains I'm interested in and one would have been probably to pursue even further education in theology like I did in the world of counseling and psychology. I often wish I had perhaps one I would have gone out of state for university. When I wanted to. My wife was at a point where you know, staying close to home was a little safer. And so, we didn't venture out like I had wanted to and I would have changed that now that I've taught abroad, I would have probably studied, tried to study at Oxford or Cambridge theology. I think I might've still gone into counseling and psychology. Cause that kind of naturally happened anyway. And I'm that kind of person. So, I think there would have always been the helping professions, theology and psychology philosophy and I probably would have done further study in the theology and philosophy area as well as counseling and psychology.

Taylor Leek:Oh, that's great, that's interesting. Because I, when I was thinking about doing this interview, I was like, what would he do different? Because it seems like from an outsider's perspective that everything that you've done is so valuable and so enriching. I know when you came to talk to global leadership, we were all like, wow, he did that, he's done that. And I think when we're growing up, we always look to people to see if they would have changed things to see if we want to change things. So I think knowing that, that you would have kept the same trajectory that you had and you fell into the positions kind of comforts people because we fall into positions that we don't always see coming. So that's definitely comforting. I know you have children.

Wayne Barnard:I would add one more thing. The other thing I would have done was to be much more intentional about learning other languages. I had opportunities to do that and just kind of dabbled in several languages, which I still do, which has been helpful. And I've certainly traveled, which I would've done regardless abroad but, and lived abroad. But I wish I'd been more intentional cause I had opportunities to become even bilingual or multilingual for sure. Yeah, and I definitely wouldn't, would and it's not too late. And so I'm working on it, but it would have been easier earlier age, grandchildren. Yes, I do, who don't speak,

Wayne Barnard:We're going to see what that's like or the three year old at Christmas time. But fortunately our sons

Wayne Barnard:Speaks Norwegian, but you know, it'd be nice not to have been translated, so I'm working on my Norwegian.

Taylor Leek:Yeah. you, as you mentioned, you have children do you think your role with your parents, do you think that's something that you've seen and they've kind of followed that trajectory? Israel on the same pathway, but because I know one's in the military, so, yeah. Yeah,

Wayne Barnard:Absolutely. Without a doubt. I, you know, it, it's, it's nature and nurture. They're genetically gifted in a lot of different ways. They were both honors students. My son left high school after a sophomore year and came onto college. And my daughter was younger than her peers. And so they've always they grew up with us you know, in, in education and working on our, our graduate degrees. And so that's kind of what they've known. They were schooled on a university campus at a very young age and even went to the, the elementary and high school when my son left that, but that was part of our campus. And so they grew up being babysat by our students and going on trips with us. And so education, you know, night and day was just what they knew.

Wayne Barnard:And like my mother, my wife Mimi has been a professional all along and so they grew up with both of us working professionally and in higher ed especially. And so, yeah, I would say they've seen us as leaders in our profession as leaders at church, as leaders in the community, just like I did. And have taken that on as an expectation and as a responsibility. And so for them in, in their different kinds of work and where they live both of them are excelling in that way. And it comes pretty natural for them.

Taylor Leek:So would you say that your, your legacy would be to see them succeed as well as to see them succeed in a leadership role as how they should and not something that you expect of them? Cause I know expectation is high with a lot of parents, but I think from what I'm hearing is that you want them to succeed and excel in their own right. 

Wayne Barnard:Yeah. And you know, when they were growing up, just like with me, I would say at times, you know, you, you, you kind of resist or fight against certain expectations and yet somewhere in you, if you're able you, you kind of understand and, and get past that. And so, you know, we would I I'll say allowed, I allowed my children choice. And so, if they were trying something and decided it wasn't for them, some would say I might let them stop doing it quicker than others would have. But that didn't create any kind of inability on their part or feelings of inadequacy. It allowed them to kind of pick and choose where they, you know, saw their giftedness, whether, I mean, in generally it was sports, it was music, it was acting. You know, my, my son even did dance lessons, I mean an acting and, and he was a sports guy.

Wayne Barnard:Now he's an officer in the Navy, but, you know, they just tried a lot of different things and I think that was helpful. And it really comes from my background of having done a lot of different things and, and wanting, you know, to experience as much as I could. And so now they kind of have this voracious appetite for experience. And so they've traveled broadly. They've studied abroad multiple times. They've studied languages, I've sent them to language schools. They're both quite gifted at language. And they take opportunities, you know, they, they you know, in Texas we say take the bull by the horns and they're kind of that way just putting themselves out there. And so I don't they are at a point now at 30 and 31 where it's not any more expectation. It's, it's anticipation and it's kind of just the way we're wired.

Taylor Leek:Yeah. I think that's, yeah, that it's like that anticipation that what are they going do next because they can do anything next because you've given them those choices and those opportunities and they take those opportunities. Would you say in your time as a leader in different roles that your definition or how you've led has changed with every role? Or does it stay pretty consistent with you?

Wayne Barnard:I think generally it stays consistent. I would say though that context really does shape sometimes both success and failure as a leader. There've been times when I was leading in student affairs at a university. You know, I had a lot of people ultimately reporting up to me. And so there were various layers and I tried various things, really kind of working against a typical hierarchical structure. I tend to be a bit more of a feminist in my perspective of leadership. And at times though, I have some, you know, fairly traditional masculine values, you know, kind of butt up against that. And I, in my best self, I would try a very collaborative leadership model and I tried to flatten and create a, a flatter kind of structure rather than hierarchy. But then there are times where, you know, I felt like I had to be a bit more hierarchical because of an issue that was going on or someone mainly not working well within a flatter structure and had to create some hierarchy.

Wayne Barnard:So in terms of structure and those kinds of things, I would say it's changed a bit, but I would say I've grown in terms of my understanding of leadership as influence, understanding what followership means, understanding good practices relative to communication and, and kind of the idea of, of cultural intelligence that we're all different. Not just from different cultures in terms of where we live in terms of nation but, but other kinds of cultures as well. And gender and just across all kind of you know, inclusivity and kind of broadly

Taylor Leek:When you were in that well as you've gone through your leadership role do you think, because sometimes today it feels like we have to take on everything ourselves. Do you think it is an important necessity for us to learn to delegate? And if so,

Wayne Barnard:Yeah, I would say if I were to, to isolate one area, one growth area for me in leadership of all kinds it would be this idea of delegating. I do have a tendency to take on too much. I have a tendency sometimes of not having the best of boundaries. Part of it is, and in my mind I rationalized that I'm, I'm leading by doing, you know, and so that it's important for people to see me do whatever my expectation would be for all of us. And I like the way that sounds. And I actually liked the way that feels. But sometimes delegation is best because it's how you mentor and develop and train other leaders is to give people opportunity to Excel and to be mentored. And I have people who I feel like I have had some influence on their development as a mentor and, and people who would say, you know, I learned this from you or I learned this from Wayne. And so, that happens. But in terms of some kind of balance theory, I would say that I'm more imbalanced and try to take on and do more than I should and rationalize that it's for good reasons, but a lot of it is I tend to be a bit more controlling, which is interesting. So, I have these, these selves that are at battle that I have to work at quite a bit.

Taylor Leek:[Inaudible] Do you think you taking on too much leads to a lot of like stressful behaviors or tendencies that you have?

Wayne Barnard:Sure. It certainly can. You know, I'm a two on the Enneagram and so oftentimes I will take on too much more than I should. And then get to a point where I'm resentful, especially if, you know, I'm, I'm hoping that by doing that other people go, Oh look, we need to step up. And then if people don't, well, you know, have you asked people to have you, have you been so imbalanced? You know, if you are a high on responsibility, then people just assume that you'll be responsible and they don't have to be. These are things I know. I mean, these are things I teach and yet in my life you know, I, I still have to battle with that. It's been true in family. It's been true in profession in relationships of all kinds. I tend to want to do too much or take on too much.

Taylor Leek:Hmm. I'm also a two on the Enneagram. Do you, since you brought it up, the Enneagram is like such a big concept now and a big idea from a psychological, because I know other professors stand differently on it. How this has nothing to do with leadership, but how valid do you feel like it is?

Wayne Barnard:Oh, I think it's valid. I think, I think all of these, whether it's the Myers Briggs the the big five personality I think the MMPI too. I think the Enneagram, I think StrengthsFinder, you know, you could just go on and on and on. These are all tools. These are all mechanisms by which we can know ourselves better. And they all have some validity in a place. I don't think any of them should be you know, the isn't necessarily the gold standard, if you will rather maybe a battery of, of opportunities to come to know ourselves better, including perhaps talk therapy and other mechanisms. But even psychoeducation, you know, they're all different kinds of ways that we can have a better perspective of who we are. I liked the Enneagram out. What I like about it is that it's not pie in the sky.

Wayne Barnard:I mean, it gives you a sense of yourself in your best self and then when you're not your best self so much like StrengthsFinder, it kind of shows the darker side. And so anytime you know, the yin and yang is just true. And I've, I've kind of talked about that in this interview because that's just how we are and when I'm in, when I'm in my best self I think I do quite well. But stress, anxiety being tired, being lonely and frustrated leads to anger those kinds of things can really push you out of your best self. And if you're not careful, you act out of your worst self. And then the dark side, there's its ugly head.

Taylor Leek:Yeah, I understand that completely. We've talked about some personality tests or tools and global leadership and one of  them was the North, South East, West compass. And we got put into groups, interests like compare and contrast how we feel about other groups and how they feel about us, who we work best with. Do you think he has? From my standpoint, knowing who you are on both sides, the good, the bad the in between is a good tool for being an effective leader and being a good leader. And being able to connect with your constituents and leading them properly?

Wayne Barnard:Absolutely. I think that's just generally true about all relationships. I was president of my senior class in high school and this is one of those things where, you know, my classmates were not all that in what the class motto was going to be or anything else. And so I ended up just doing a lot of it. And so the, at the time I was really taken by this old Scottish saying would some power God give us to see ourselves as others see us. And that became our class model. And I also use that that thought and that notion in my senior class president speech at graduation. And I've just always believed in terms of a, a partnership, whether it's you know, two people who choose to live life together in whatever way friends but even, you know, leadership the, the better we know ourselves, the less we get hooked into other people in their stuff and we know where we end and they take off and we don't get into codependent kinds of relationship, which is a thing I struggle with this idea of balance.

Wayne Barnard:And so I, I'm not, I'm not one that would want to spend my life navel gazing because I'm very others' oriented. But I think knowing yourself well allows you to know other better and not have the, to become entangled in a way that's unhealthy and that's just true about all relationships.

Taylor Leek:[Inaudible] If you, this is just something that I like to ask a lot of people especially my mom because it differs from people to people. But if you were to have to define what a leader means, what, how would you define it to tell the rest of the world? How would you define leadership? Because it's often today a buzzword that we all hear, but we don't actually all understand completely. Even being in a global leadership class, I don't understand it completely. And people have different perspectives on it. So if you had to define it, what would you,

Wayne Barnard:Yeah. And I've used this word already. You know, I see kind of factors of leadership and, and one of those is influence. Obviously if, if, if you don't have influence, then you're really probably not connecting with others or interacting with others that might even promote anything like what we think of as, as leadership. But with that I think of other words I think of is trustworthiness and that idea of integrity. And if you say something, you do it and you follow through. And so I think a leader has that sense of integrity. How so? Think about the difference between you know, leadership is often about power and it is a, you can't deny that. And so I think instead of positional power, which is more traditionally thought of as leader, you know, it's kind of C suite person, CEO, top of the hierarchical chain I think of character power.

Wayne Barnard:And so I think that the real power of leadership is not in one's position but in one's character. And so those are traits that are developed over time. You know, some of those you know, in terms of of nature, we're born with, I would say temperament anyway somewhat fixed, but I think then environmental influences and what we give ourselves to create certain kind of character traits and values that went in place provide the ability to be most influential in another person's life. Such that there's there's humility, you know, so wisdom, wisdom is knowing what you don't know or realizing there's something you don't know you may not know, but you certainly realize and then that opens you up to learning from others. And I think greatest influence comes when there's reciprocity and people are both leading and being led, being transformative, but also being transformed teaching. But also being taught. And so again, in my best self, I think I'm a person who's quite open to learning from others. And my leadership has always been best when that's the case as opposed to, you know, my not so good self that tends to be a bit more controlling and no at all thinking that my way's best. And if people were just falling in line, we'd be fine. Yeah,

Taylor Leek:That's how I feel sometimes. I think I just want to ask you this question just because I'm from, like I said, an outside perspective. I think it's really good to talk to people that you look up to and try to see how they feel about this or what their thoughts are. But what do you, once you leave academia or once you leave your position, what do you want your legacy to be? Whether it be, because I know you worked for other places and then you're here. So, what would you want your legacy to be for students specifically?

Wayne Barnard:Yeah. I think what I hope for is that the way I teach, the way I lead my life, live my life, portray my life and my experiences such that it gives students a sense of hope, a sense of possibility. A sense that really and truly we have choices and choice is a gift. And then responsibly living within choice you know, making decisions, those decisions leading to new decisions not thinking that there's just one way to live and be in the world professionally or otherwise. And that there are great possibilities but it requires you know, some guts, some intelligence. But then some you know, this idea of fortitude and perseverance and putting yourself out there. There's not you know, we, we basically write our script. There's no script we're following.

Wayne Barnard:And so we're, we're more in charge of that I think, than we realize. And this narrative unfolds over time. And it's not something you can always plan in advance. In fact, most of it is retrospective. Most of it is looking back to see where you've been, to know where you're going. And so that kind of interconnectedness that kinda connected, knowing that kind of interdisciplinary just being open to learning from different people, different cultures, different opportunities, different experiences. You first have to put yourself in those places, right? And so, it just requires some courage and some guts. Some things work, some things don't. But you can't be held back by that. You got to keep moving forward. But with an eye in the past sometimes I think I don't spend a lot of time thinking about the past at all. I'm very future oriented, but I'm not a historical. I think that history teaches us a lot and if we're not keen to it we really will find ourselves kind of repeating behaviors, painting, repeating ways of thinking and behaving that aren't helpful. And, and there are a lot of things that our society, our world has learned multiple times. And that's just part of it. But, you know, looking to the future but always having some eye on where we come from and where we're going in the present.

Taylor Leek:Well that's helpful. I, yeah, I when I came here or was choosing to come here, it took like a leap of faith and courage just because I'm only an hour and a half away from my family, but my family was an integral, integral part of how I grew up and where I grew up. And so, coming here was this huge leap and I think I've learned along the way from you and some other professors that you havea to take those leaps when they present themselves. And I think there's value to be learned and all the leaps that you take.

Wayne Barnard:Absolutely. I think so as and so, you know, there we all like safety and security and so it's nice to have those touch points and those touchstones. And I certainly do. I've, I've traveled and lived away from family, but we're fortunate enough in this day and time that you still have that connection back to family. And even if in terms of proximity, those people, friends, family, significant others are not right there with you. There is a connection. And if you foster that connection and maintain a lot of what you've learned from others over time and, and what you're still learning from others, you know, you can, you can venture out, you can go far away and you can do some amazing things. And you know, I've lived apart from my wife for a year while I worked in lived in China and I, and therefore from my, my parents and my siblings, I've always pretty much lived away. And so, and that was intentional and that was purposeful. And so now my kids are doing the same thing. And but you know, we we maintain the close affection and affinity through all the means available and then realize, you know, regardless, it's a plane right away. That's all

Taylor Leek:Plane rides. They can be expensive, but it's nothing like family

Wayne Barnard:And, you know, we all spend our money on something. So you just prioritize what you're going to spend your money.

Taylor Leek:Yeah. I, I think that's it for all my questions that I'm sincerely interested in asking you. Because some of the other ones I feel like I aren't as what, as intentional as I want them to be for the interaction and the interview him. But I really do feel like I've learned a lot about your leadership style and how you define leadership and how your positions have helped you grown. But I, I genuinely am so thankful for you. Yeah. When I switched from the bio department, I never thought I wouldn't find like comfort where I was an I got assigned to you and I've definitely found comfort and peace, so genuinely I am so,

Wayne Barnard:Oh, I'm glad. I'm, I'm very glad that that's helpful for me. And you know, you've seen me generally at my best, but you've also seen me at times when life is pretty tough and I'm, I'm fairly transparent. Some would say to a fault maybe given my role, but I, I've just always believed I don't think it's helpful for students to believe that life gets to some plateau and you've stopped you cease being a human being and has difficulties. And so I've been a little bit more transparent about family issues or things going on or struggles simply because, you know, it's the real world and shame on me for not presenting a real world and, you know, appropriately so. But, so that's, that's been my intention by being a bit more transparent as I see it and more of an open book. I just, I would never want to give some image of myself that's just simply not true.

Taylor Leek:I know other professors in other departments don't do that as well. So it's something that I talked to other people and we genuinely value about professors.

Wayne Barnard:Yeah. You know, my, one of my mottos is, is live large, live loud. You know, that's kind of what I've always done and sometimes that can get you into trouble. But, you know, I, I know how to apologize. I know how to back out of things, and I don't think that's bad. I think that's a good thing. It models kind of just civic life for people. And you know, there are ways to disagree that are, are helpful and agree as well. But yeah, that's, that's kinda how I want to be. Yeah.

Taylor Leek:You seem to be living it well and living true to yourself, which, we value as students, so thank you.