Interview with Douglas Crews, November 20, 2019

Hayden MacMath: Thank you so much for joining me, Dr. Doug Crews, a professor in the social work department. I chose you for this project because I thought that you have unique characteristics about leadership that aren't necessarily seen in other, everyday leaders that we think of. So that is kind of why I wanted to hear about your leadership and growth through that and unique characteristics that you have. So kind of my first question is just could you start by explaining a little bit about who you are, and kind of how you got into this profession of social work?

Doug Crews: Okay. Who I am? That's a big ole' question.

H M: It is haha.

D C: Excuse me. So who am I? I am a social worker by profession and I also teach people how to be social workers so, you know, making sure that the people going into the profession that I love are prepared and ready to be good leaders in the future.

H M: Definitely

D C: So how I got into the profession of social work was before becoming a social worker I was a minister. So I lead congregations, churches, and things like that and at a point in my life I decided that doing therapeutic work is going to be an important part of who I am so I went back, got my degree in social work, because of the values of the profession. Like looking at the dignity and worth of all people, looking at that we're a profession of social justice, and service.

H M: Yeah.

D C: Those are things that are really important to me and then I got my masters in social work and through that did clinical social work doing therapeutic work and moved me into eventually a PHD program to become a professor. But in the intervening years I did a lot of work with different populations and different groups in building programs and therapeutic work to make sure that the lives of people are being transformed.

H M: Yeah

D C: So that's why I got here.

H M: That's really interesting. What is some of the unique populations that you worked with along the journey that are notable.

D C: Along the journey, I started working mainly with college students, which here I am again as a college professor working with college students. So my first therapeutic job was working with college students in a university counseling center and then after completing that I worked with a couple of different groups mainly with people who identify as lesbian, gay and bisexual, and also people who identify as transgender, so that's been the bulk of my work. Especially, even a subset of that, is that looking at how they process and work through their sexual orientation or gender identity regarding their spiritual lives and how those two things intersect or feel like they don't intersect, and then how they can bring them together to feel more cohesive in their life around their spirituality and their sexuality.

H M: Definitely

D C: So those are some main groups that I've worked with.

H M: That's really cool. That's something that is so important I feel like too especially with all the, there's so many conversations now, and I remember in my bible class yesterday talking about, changing the Bible from "He" pronouns to "all inclusive" pronouns and there were people in my class that were getting upset about that and it was like, a wake up call to see people that are my age, that are in a classroom, in college but still don't have this framework of inclusivity, or everybody's like, story matters and everybody has a place and a purpose.

D C: Yeah

H M: So I think that's super interesting

D C: We get so many, so many people get intrenched in the kind of way of, this is how things are. Religion is like this, these are the right ways to define gender, these are the right ways to define sexuality, these are the right ways to define XYZ, whatever that may be

H M: Yeah

D C: And it can be, if you're living in a world of social work, and social justice, it could feel like when you step out and talk to people who are not in that world

H M: Yeah it's just like a,

D C: It's kind of weird, you're like oh people, not everyone thinks like this.

H M: Mhmm, yeah.

D C: And it can be really jarring sometimes I think

H M: Definitely.

D C: Yeah

H M: That's really interesting. As you worked with those populations and as you continue to, kind of, mold and just adapt to whatever like life circumstances you had or wherever God felt like He needed to put you, how do you think that you had leadership or showed characteristics of leadership in those moments? Whether it be, because of, you know, the people you were working with or yourself.

D C: Okay, I think when I think of leadership, and kind of how that expresses in my life its not so much that I'm in charge of things

H M: Yeah

D C: But it is that I, help people move into the spaces that feel most confident for them.

H M: Mmm

D C: So it's like a behind the scenes leader

H M: Definitely, yeah

D C: Some people might call it servant leader, some people might call it--I'm not sure the exact word for it

H M: Like empowering leadership.

D C: Empowering leadership is that I see my job and my role whether it be as a professor, as a clinical social work, as someone who is just in the world, that my job, as a leader, is to ensure that they, feel like they have all the knowledge, skills, abilities to do their thing in the world well.

H M: Yeah

D C: And it's, again, it's not that I'm in charge of anything it's just that I help you become in charge for you

H M: Yeah

D C: And that's my leadership style is, and by doing that people listen, I mean I think that, people listen to leaders

H M: Yeah

D C: People are inspired by leaders, I think sometimes it feels a little weird to say it like that but, I think

H M: No, that totally makes sense yeah.

D C: I do inspire people, I do help people become stronger and better people

H M: Mhmm

D C: And that is the skill I bring.

H M: But through a relationship you know?

D C: Yes.

H M: It's like you trust them in order that they trust you and what you have to say.

D C: Yes and also you know lead by example and be a person of authenticity, be a person of integrity, be a person of competency

H M: Yeah

D C: And that really, people see that.

H M: Totally

D C: And gravitate towards that. And I feel like that's a skill that I, that's something that I offer,

H M: Yeah

D C: People gravitate and are able to say I like who you are in the world, how do I do that?

H M: Yeah

D C: I feel like, it's maybe not traditional leadership, especially as a man, it doesn't look like traditional leadership.

H M: Definitely

D C: Like I'm in charge of something

H M: Yeah

D C: But, people are moving forward and that's the job of a leader.

H M: Mhmm. That's how I, came as a social work major. I saw what everybody else was doing and I was like that. That's what I want to do.

D C: That's the thing

H M: Do you feel like that, specific style of leadership, of like empowering people more so than like being overtop of them, is that something that you feel like you were called into, or is that you, kind of, like adapting to your gifts that you think you have, that your talents, or is that something that you think like everybody should kind of have in leadership?

D C: Okay, that's a lot. I think, for me, I think I, as I started off in my career in life I thought I had to be the leader as in the person in charge.

H M: Yeah

D C: If I were going to work at a place, eventually I would need to be the CEO, or the director, or the chairman.

H M: Yeah.

D C: Or the, the whatever.

H M: Something.

D C: Word is that is the leader of all of it. And I realized that, that is not my skillset either. If I could be someones second, that is where I shine.

H M: Yeah.

D C: That, I can be the advice giver, I can be the idea bouncer, I can be the like, what do you think person.

H M: Yeah.

D C: And then allow them to shine, that is where I do best. And again, I had to learn to live into that.

H M: Definitely.

D C: Because the messages that I was receiving, being a male in society, was that, all men become in charge of everyone.

H M: Totally.

D C: And that's my role.

H M: Not just in work too but in like family.

D C: In life in general.

H M: And in life, yeah.

D C: And so, but I've always been someone who is like, I encourage, and I empower and I hope to give people their wings kind of thing and also working predominantly, I learned about my like, I'm probably not the leader leader person like, as in the buck stops with me person, when I worked in ministry and people were like, well the buck stops with you, and I'm like well I don't like this feeling so

H M: Yeah

D C: It doesn't feel like

H M: You're the end all say all

D C: And I don't mind making a decision, I don't mind being clear in my expectations I don't mind like, doing leader-y things

H M: Which makes sense, as a professor you have to

D C: But, that's not where I shone.

H M: Yeah.

D C: I shine when I do something else. And moving into social work where I work mainly with women only and I'm typically the only male in the space

H M: Yeah.

D C: Which I think you can identify with sometimes.

H M: Definitely, yeah.

D C: It is sometimes even more so put upon me to be the leader leader.

H M: Yeah.

D C: And me saying, no and having all the women around me be the leader leaders, is an interesting dynamic

H M: Yeah

D C: Not so much for us doing the thing, like the people that I work with. But for other people to say, aren't you going to be the chair someday? Aren't you going to be the dean?

H M: Yeah

D C: Like, I'm happy where I am

H M: Exactly

D C: And I feel fulfilled where I am, and I feel like I am making a difference where am I and for me, that's my leadership.

H M: I think that's so good. That's so important. We kind of talked about like, the empowering part of it; what, and I think that's something that I feel like I have to where my leadership definitely isn't, I'm not somebody that's going to be at the top, I'm not somebody that's going to be overarching somebody or like this macro level, I'm totally going to be somebody that's going to be empowering other people to be leaders in others way that I am not. And what do you feel like are ways that you, kind of, do that? Ways that you like empower those specific people, while still giving them, you know, the self-determination, which social work holds so, so close.

D C: So dear, yeah. I think some of the things I do are this. One, I don't mind listening.

H M: Yeah

D C: I tend to be a listener more than a talker. And so hearing and, I think a gift I bring to the table when I'm with people, is that I can see multiple sides of a thing. And, think about, if we go this direction this, if we go this direction this, if we go this direction this like, I'm..the way my mind works is, I enjoy

H M: The perspectives, yeah

D C: Plotting out the different perspectives, like if we do this here are the things that could go right and here are the things that could go wrong. If we go here, here are the things--and being able to think like that is good because it helps other people, especially if a leader is like, single minded. Which is sometimes a trait of some leaders.

H M: Definitely

D C: We have to do this, make this goal happen, this is the only way I know how to do it let's do it.

H M: Yeah

D C: And I'm a better person at thinking of different ways so, that's one thing I think I bring to the table. I think another thing I do is I make people feel like who they are is good. And who they are is competent. And who they are is the best they can be.

H M: Yeah and they don't have to do anything else either

D C: They don't have to do anything else. Who they are, in their skin, and as the human they are is the best.

H M: Yeah

D C: And allowing people to not feel an expectation from me to be better or different but be you. And that's going to lead. That's going to be a great gift you give. Just by being your authentic self in a space. And, surprisingly as I tell people that like, no who you are is good and you're worth it, and you're important, cause often leaders feel pressure. Especially cause I work with a lot of non-profit leaders so, there's a board.

H M: Yeah, oh yeah.

D C: There's other people going, hey you, hey you, hey you, and you have to, kind of, fulfill all these deeds of all these people. Or even if you're like a middle level leader.

H M: Yeah

D C: Like there's someone, for lack of better terms, below you saying, we need; and above saying, do this; and trying to balance that. And I think I'm able to help people feel like they have--who they are is good enough to do that job. And "good enough" is a really powerful phrase, I think,

H M: Yeah

D C: Yeah, so I think those are things I bring to the table. Some unique qualities that many people would say, after spending time with me, professional and personally like, you make me feel like my best self.

H M: Yeah

D C: You made me feel like who I am is seen and heard and that gives them confidence.

H M: Exactly, yeah.

D C: So, I think that's one of my main gifts that I bring to the table

H M: I would agree. Is that--are those qualities that you think every leader should have in some way? Or do you think that that's kind of job dependent or dependent on the population you work with?

D C: I think, yes to all that. I think it is dependent on where you are, it is dependent on, kind of, what your desires are. But also I think, I believe in the power of a team too.

H M: Yeah

D C: As a leadership, I think a sole leader that is good at this, will get you only so far and then another leader that's good at something else will only get you so far. But if these two people can get together you can go further. So, you know, somebody who has a big picture and is driven and goal oriented will get us someplace, but then someone like me who is like, but let's make sure people are using, and being who they are and doing what they need to do in a space so if you know like, Hayden has this skill, then he can do this portion and it will take our place this. So I guess delegation is an important part.

H M: Mhmm, definitely

D C: In that--and so that would mean also, which is sometimes hard for leaders, that ego has to find a way to have a safe space haha.

H M: Definitely

D C: Cause there are some leaders that have some egos and their internal mental health and success is based on how well they lead and how well people follow maybe, instead of how well you're meeting the goal as a community.

H M: Yeah

D C: And again, I think there's a role for people who are single minded, kind of, not doctoral leaders but clear, decisive leaders. And then there are great spaces for people who are consensus leaders.

H M: Yeah.

D C: And I would probably be a consensus leader, more than a decisive

H M: Dictator

D C: Dictatorial leader. Though, every now and again I have to put the hat on of like, no this is the thing. You are in Doug's world and this is Doug's dictatorship in the sense that

H M: Exactly

D C: And that--because that's the way that you get things done too. And if people trust you, they'll let you do that.

H M: Yeah.

D C: And support you, but it also will all come back again and provide consensus and connectivity

H M: Yeah. I feel like that's such an important part too because we put so much like, hope and confidence in our perspective leaders, whatever that may be. Whoever you think is going to be the best leader, we think is going to be like, THE best leader and

D C: On all fronts and for all reasons and in all ways.

H M: Yeah, and understanding that like

D C: That's impossible.

H M: Your best leader has qualities that your least favorite leader, might be really good at. And like, those two people working together, while it might be a nightmare in your head, is actually what could lead to something else.

D C: Yes, and I have a skill set. And my colleagues have a skill set. And together we do pretty well at making sure a broader picture is being seen.

H M: Mmm, yeah.

D C: But we're willing to work together, again, that's another thing with leadership is like, creating an atmosphere of connectivity. Regardless of whether you're, kind of, the clear, decisive--I feel bad saying dictator, but you know what I mean

H M: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

D C: Like whether you're clear and decisive or if you're a consensus builder, you have to build a space where people feel confident following you.

H M: Yeah, that's important. What would you say, cause we kind of talked about the journey of becoming a leader, and how you had your bumps in the road in, kind of, figuring out what your skill sets were. What would you say to, your students, or me, or even like your younger self about how they can come to terms with their qualities or how they can be a leader in what their doing?

D C: I think, one of the great gifts we offer especially if you're young and you have good people around you. And, again, there's the whole caveat, Do you have good people around you?

H M: Definitely

D C: Is like, and I say it often, and I know I maybe say it too often but, allowing people to try things on. Like, I don't know what kind of leader I want to be, well try being like clear and decisive in your decision making.

H M: Yeah

D C: And some people thrive, and some people don't

H M: Do not, yeah.

D C: Then it's, maybe, how do you build a team around consensus and coleus around a thought or an idea and plan from there and use delegation.

H M: Yeah.

D C: Some people thrive, some people don't. And it's allowing space for people to try those things on.

H M: Definitely

D C: So if I am your supervisor, as your boss, in a sense, I'm the leader of you, it's me saying, Okay Hayden. Why don't you lead this meeting?

H M: Yeah

D C: Why don't you take charge of this teaching moment? Why don't you do this? And, often I hear immediately like, no no no I'm not good, I can't do that. And I'm like, I need you to trust me, that I trust you.

H M: Yeah.

D C: Please do this. I'm here for you, were going to work it out. And, kind of, that mentoring, and allowing, and again, here's an ego check for all of us. Allowing you to be better than me.

H M: Mmm, yeah.

D C: And sometimes leaders are really good with that, and sometimes leaders are not so good with that haha.

H M: Definitely, yeah

D C: But, if I do my job well you will be better than me

H M: I should be, yeah.

D C: And I hope you are. You will learn from me, you will also learn from other people who have put time and energy into you, and I hope that does make you a better leader than me. I mean, we're all good humans but, you know, or a different skill set. And you're going to take our mission or take the mission of wherever you are, further, and deeper, whatever that may be. So that's probably the advice I would give myself and others is, try it.

H M: Yeah.

D C: Take a risk. Fail. Failure is not the end, failure is just another space, and that's really hard. Especially because I work with college students now and failure does not feel like a learning moment.

H M: Yeah, never does haha.

D C: Haha, and I would suggest too that in the working world, failure does not feel like a learning moment, nor is failure treated as a learning moment.

H M: Yeah

D C: I think we think of failure as, you did this wrong, instead of, you tried. Tell me what went well. Tell me what didn't go well. What do you do next time?

H M: Yeah

D C: And, I don't think our culture, especially our corporate culture, gives us enough space to do those kinds of moments of learning. And resetting. And trying again.

H M: Yeah.

D C: It's, I gave you a task, do it well the first time, and then we wonder why people burn out on perfectionism.

H M: Mmm, yeah. And it's not even, do it the first time, if you mess it up its okay, we'll work it out and do it again. It's like, do it the first time, if you mess it up

D C: You're done

H M: You better never mess up again, or you're done, yeah.

D C: And that's so much pressure because, I mean, if you're straight out of college you're a twenty three year old person.

H M: You're going to mess up.

D C: Trying to learn a skill that someone else has been doing for thirty years. Like, that's not fair.

H M: Yeah

D C: And so, you can see now, where part of my leadership is, is it's like, I want justice and fairness in the system. I have--my job, as the adult, the older person in this space, the one who's done it, my job is to help you do it well.

H M: Yeah

D C: And knowing that, you're at the beginning and you don't know the answer yet, because you're not able to live into it yet.

H M: Totally.

D C: So, but that can be frustrating too because even in the systems where I work where that is somewhat, time is still an issue.

H M: Yeah.

D C: Like, there's a semester for classes. There's a time frame for our internship. There are, you will graduate by this certain date. And so there's only so much learning

H M: Yeah

D C: Change over time like, ruminating on your learning and processing. Now, in our social work we probably do that more than others

H M: Definitely

D C: Haha

H M: And I feel like it's so evident that model is applied to the whole social work department in that, we have practice 1 class that's about individual groups, and then we have practice 2 class, and then you have to do an internship, and you have to take a diversity class, and you have to take these other classes, and I think that's so good cause it gives you this give and take. In my classes people will be like, I did this and found out it wasn't for me. Or I did this and found out it was for me and both times everybody else in the class is celebrating them, but then the only negative comment that any of us have is, I wish we would have learned this sooner. I wish we would have had this a couple weeks ago, or a couple months ago, or a year ago

D C: Right, but you can only learn it at a pace.

H M: Exactly

D C: And I think that's a great thing that like, I wish I would have known that, well now you do. And that's hard too

H M: And there's other people that don't know it, who need to know, and don't know that they even want to know it.

D C: And it's like, I can't teach you all of this thing in a week, semester. That's why it takes four years to get a college degree haha

H M: Exactly

D C: You have to learn one thing, live into it, learn another thing, live into it, and in social work you get to try it on. Like literally you have to go to an internship and do a thing with an individual, do a thing with a group, do a thing in a community, take a chance.

H M: Even in your first class, even in intro to social work. You have to have service hours

D C: Service hours, yeah

H M: You have to do something, even if you don't like it, try something.

D C: And so that's, that made me think that part of leadership philosophy would be like, you have to let the people try it. And then I have to let them know that, sometimes it's really good to say, okay that doesn't work for you let's try something new. And other times it's like, sometimes you have to do a thing that's hard.

H M: Yeah. Something that just

D C: Stick to it, here's, again not the best metaphor but, here's your hoop, jump.

H M: Yeah

D C: But part of it is that like, in every job, in every situation, in class, everywhere that you'll be, there are things that you have to do because it's part of it, and then there's things you get to do because it's part of it

H M: Yeah

D C: And hopefully, the, I get to do it, weighs more than

H M: Weighs more

D C: Weighs more than the, I have to do it. And not that there can't be joy in, have to, but

H M: Exactly, yeah

D C: There are parts of my job that challenge me, and bore me, but it's still apart of what I do

H M: Exactly, and that doesn't out weigh the joy

D C: It doesn't outweigh the joy, and the creativity and the autonomy and how I can bring myself into the space and that feels--but again I have good leaders.

H M: Yeah.

D C: Around me to help me do that too.

H M: Totally. The last question that was on the list I thought was so, interesting. But also just such a daunting question it was, what do you want your legacy to be? And I thought that was so interesting, and it was making me think about it because I was like, even as a junior in college, what do I want my legacy to be? Or what is my legacy as of right now that people would remember me by? So not even necessarily like, what is your legacy, but what do you feel like is something that you want people to be like, Doug Crews did that the best, that was what he did that I've never seen anybody else be able do something like that.

D C: Well I don't know if it's, no-one has ever, but, and this is a hard question.

H M: Totally

D C: I saw it earlier and I was like, I don't know how to answer that question, but I think if I, kind of, distill everything out, I want people, after they leave me, that they were, seen and heard. And that sounds so simple

H M: Yeah

D C: But I really want people to know that I see you, I hear you, and I like that.

H M: Yeah

D C: And who you are is the best thing you can be. And how that plays out for me is different for different people, you know? It's someone who wrote something and I put down, I write a feedback that says, this touched my heart, I learned something, there was something powerful in your words, keep this up, writing is good for you, you know?

H M: Mhmm

D C: Or someone who doesn't see that they have empathy or care in their personage and say, well people tell me I'm not empathetic, and being able to say here's how I see that.

H M: Yeah

D C: And I think that's the legacy I want. I want people to walk away and say, I was allowed to be myself, that was seen, and it was loved.

H M: Definitely

D C: And I hope that's what happens, I mean you know, again that's a hindsight thing. People don't often come back and go, thank you for making me feel seen and heard and loved like, that's not a--I get when you talk to me about grants I felt, I remembered that later, you know? And so I know, what I think I want my legacy to be is more esoteric and kind of out there but, I think it's practical too. Because if people know its possible to be seen and heard I feel like that's a powerful gift.

H M: It is. I think you're already doing it too and I catch myself noticing things like that but in different ways where I'm not like, oh that one time in class where Doug saw me, that was really impactful. But I'll be talking to somebody and it, you know, it'll be a hard conversation, or it'll be somebody that I'm struggling to talk to, or somebody that I don't want to have a conversation with and I'll think, how did somebody else treat me in this situation where I didn't feel like I was deserving of having a conversation? Or how did somebody treat me when I was going through something where I was struggling? Or when I didn't understand something? And it's like, in those thoughts, there's specific moments where I think back and I think about you, and I think about awe, sitting in your office the first day and, I didn't think that I could find a major to fit and now I have one. And it's like when Julie is like, do you want a social work mentor? How could I not because of the mentorship that I was given?

D C: That was given to you, yeah.

H M: And how could I not pass that onto somebody else?

D C: It feels like a weird--like sometimes I think about that, what do I hope I put out into the world? And it does feel, a little bit, touchy, feely out there but again, that's who I am and I'm owning myself in that too.

H M: Exactly, yeah.

D C: I mean who doesn't want to be seen as smart, intelligent, kind, competent, you know? All

H M: All the things.

D C: All the things, all the lists for our egos.

H M: Yeah.

D C: But I think if I try and take my ego out a little bit and put my heart in there, I hope people know that I really like them.

H M: Yeah.

D C: I hope they feel, like someone at least at some point in their life said you are, you are. And that is great.

H M: Yeah, that's so important. That's all I have, thank you so much.

D C: You're welcome.

H M: For talking to me, absolutely.

D C: This was fun.