Interview with Ariel Cameron, November 11, 2019

Interview Transcript with Ariel Cameron, November 11, 2019

Farris Turner: My name is Farris Turner and I am going to be interviewing Ariel Reynolds from Sustain International, and the first question I have for you Ariel is what part of your personal biography or background led you to this position?

Ariel Cameron: So I have always grown up really involved in international mission work. So my dad is a pastor and took me on my first mission trip the summer before fifth grade, my first international mission trip the summer before fifth grade. And a lot of people thought that was crazy. I think it's a little bit more common now to take kids when they are young, overseas, but at the time it was pretty different. And people thought he was crazy, but I'm so glad he did because I think being able to go as a kid and see people living in a different culture. But just getting to interact with them as kids really opened my eyes to the type of approach that I like to have when working in international countries. And so it was just really neat to see, you know, that I was a kid playing and they were a kid playing, and it didn't matter the language or the socioeconomics that were at play, or any of those things; that we were just able to interact. I really just developed a heart for always having relationships with people with different backgrounds than myself. And then as I got older and continued to have that heart. But growing up and learning about different things: what really helps in international development and what is more harmful in our approach and different things. I eventually started Sustain International. And the purpose of Sustain is to empower those in vulnerable communities with the skills necessary to live a thriving life. So we primarily focus on job skills, clean water and education, because we feel like that trifecta, it is really what allows communities to thrive. And so, starting at a young age, I really had a heart for it, and I think because of that, whatever life threw at me or path I continued to go down, I think it was always meant to include where I am now.

FT: That's awesome. That was so well-spoken.. that was so inspirational. Okay so my next question is what cultural identities or experiences are the most salient for you? And I didn't know what 'salient' meant, my freshman self, so I googled it, and there's a synonym and it is 'important'.

AC: Okay, great. So, you know, kind of going back to what I said a little bit in that story of being a kid and just experiencing life with other kids in a different culture I think was incredibly impactful, because it made me realize from a very young age that there is nothing different between me and these people outside of the external factors that are impacting our lives. But there is no reason that I was born into privilege, where as they were born into poverty, other than just that's how life fell. And so I think having that understanding from a young age, even though I don't know if I would have worded it like that from a young age, but having that mindset growing up, I think that really shaped the way I view different cultures and allowed me to, what I like to think is, have an open mind as I am learning from others and then there have just been little things all along the way. Just different moments where, you know, you think you may have a good understanding of something and then something will happen. I'll be in a different country and I'll get corrected on how I greeted someone, or whatever it may be, and just the constant state of learning and willingness to realize that, you know, I'm not always correct or knowing that there are so many different ways for life to be lived and being unafraid to learn that, and admit that I am not going to know every single thing going into a culture I think is really important. And so just being able to experience it from a young age is something that I think was really important in my life, and it shaped the approach that I take when interacting with other cultures.

FT: That is awesome. I love that so so much. You already kind of touched on this with the first two questions, but if you had anything else that's specific within those genres what experiences have most shaped you as a leader?

AC: Yeah, so I do think it's some of the first two answers, like you said. You know, I think part of it is just personality. I think anyone can grow into leadership skills for sure, but I do also think that a little bit of my personality leans towards that and as a younger kid, always choosing more of the, quote on quote, leadership type roles. And just continuing to push myself towards that and I think that there was a time where I had the view that to really be able to make a difference I needed to pursue more leadership-type roles. I don't think that's necessarily what I think anymore, but I do think that's something that has shaped why I chose to found a non-profit, because of just some experiences where it seemed like being able to put out into the world what you think is needed felt like the best path of leadership for me. So I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I think that experience of just having some different things where it seemed like not being in a leadership role there just wasn't the type of change and not the best decisions, and it seemed like some of the non-profit work being done was more harmful than helpful, made me want to pursue a leadership role to really see healthy change take place.

FT: Yes. Wow. That so reminded me of that book When Helping Hurts, that was so good.

AC: Yeah, exactly. That was definitely a book that I read that was very impactful.

FT: Yes, okay. I admire you so much... okay, okay yes. So, again, this kind of ties into the question you just answered, but would you say that you were called into leadership? I know we both share our faith as something in common so, if you wanted to say that, do you think God called you into leadership or did you seek it out because of held convictions?

AC: Yeah, so this might be an easy way out to say both, but I do definitely think a little bit of both. I think that God called me to be faithful with Sustain. I don't know if I would say it was necessarily calling me into leadership but I do think that what I felt like was sustained and through prayers, the way the prayers were answered, it was very clear that I was called to run Sustain and so I think with that came the leadership but it was more being faithful in the work of what Sustain is doing rather than feeling called to be a leader, if that makes sense. I also think it's very much with the held convictions. Like I mentioned earlier, I think there was a lot of work in the nonprofit sector where it didn't seem like things were being done well and so part of it was wanting to start an organization that I felt like I was doing the right thing even if it moved slower or all the different things that I could get more into but I think it was a combination of being faithful to what I thought that God was calling me to do with Sustain but then also just personal conviction of leadership being an avenue to see the change that I felt like certain work in the nonprofit sector needed.

FT: Awesome, yes! Yes, yes, yes. I just like hearing you talk. So, this is a question that I was most excited about just as a person also hoping to go into non-profit work, how have you learned from the obstacles and challenges you have faced.

AC: So, the very first day that comes to mind is, I think it is so easy in our world today to give up. Quitting is very easy and jumping to the next thing, instant satisfaction, all these things, it's just our world is not made for sticking things out and I think that the number one thing that I have learned from the obstacles and challenges with Sustain is that a lot of times the best thing I can do is just wake up the next day and try again without giving in the towel. International work can be very frustrating as is I'm sure a lot of other non-profit work that is not international, that is just the sector that I can speak most towards, but it has a lot of elements of just communication barriers and a lot of other things that can make it very challenging, but I think that each day that I can wake up and try something again and prove something a little bit more, have one more family that is impacted with clean water, or a mom working or, whatever it may be that's what's important and so, there's a quote and I hate when I quote things in interviews but can't give any sort of specifications to it but something to the effect of courage is not the loud voice but the small voice that says that I'll try again tomorrow and I think that's really what I've learned from the obstacles and challenges with non-profits is, there are some days where defeat can feel close but you really just have to remember the bigger purpose and wake up the next day and just try again and just not let yourself give up.

FT: Yeah, okay, that's awesome! This is a question that I just thought of but, what has been your biggest source of encouragement because like you said, it is so tempting to throw in the towel; so, what has personally kept you going?

AC: So, I am a person of faith and so it is partly being a person of faith and in encouragement in Jesus is definitely the largest. But then on a more practical or tangible level, it's the stories. I mean I receive pictures and stories from our community partners, and this is a really tangible thing that I encourage anyone who is looking to get into the non-profit sector or really any other career would be helpful. I have folder on my computer called my rainy day folder and it's where I put answered prayers, I make sure I write those down if someone like my friend said something really encouraging about the non-profit or a major accomplishment or there's a major story that someone sent me of work that has been done somewhere that has impacted them, whatever it may be, I just put all of that in a folder and so on the days where it gets really hard, I will go back and click through that and see pictures of families lives who have been changed and I'll look back at our end of year numbers from previous years and see how many water wells were put in, how many sewing centers have been started and you know, I'll look at, I made a collage of all of my friends wearing Sustain t-shirts, where they've sent me pictures of them in their t-shirts like that's in there and seeing my friends wear it is really encouraging. Going back and seeing answered prayers, there's one really specific story which I can get into if you would like me to but basically the just of it is, there was a night when I was really, really frustrated at the very beginning. I basically prayed to God like, I need you to do this very specific thing so that I know that I am doing the right thing and it was answered very specifically in the way that I requested. I don't always think that, that is always how prayer works but in this particular moment it did and so like I wrote that down in that folder for whenever I feel like I am wanting to quit or whatever it may be I go back and look at that folder and see all of those things, and seeing it all together can be overwhelming and encouraging and so I think that's a really tangible piece of advice that I think is helpful when days can be really hard.

FT: Awesome, okay, I will for sure keep that in my back pocket. So, changing gears just a little bit, what does leadership mean to you?

AC: So, I was trying to think about, because I knew we were going to talk about leadership a little bit, and I was trying to think through how I best wanted to describe, just in general what leadership means to me. And I think one of the biggest things is someone that's willing to take the risk. That's... basically what I've said before of just waking up every single day knowing there's going to be hard parts to it, but knowing that the work is impactful. And being willing to take that risk, and putting your name on something like a nonprofit can be challenging, but leading in that. Not being afraid to put your name out there, in order to make an impact. I think leadership is being the person to have your head on the line, or whatever the phrase is. I'm really bad with idioms, but having yourself out there, and if things don't go according to plan, I think leadership is very much taking the fall for that. Whether it was anything that you are responsible for or not. And obviously there's some more individualized scenarios where that may not be the case, but I think it's the leader's responsibility to take the fall or take one for the team.

FT: Okay, awesome! How would you characterize your personal leadership style?

AC: I feel like I am very hands on. I feel very strongly that there is not something that I want someone else to have to do that I have not done myself. Which is something that a leader above my age and experience, that was some wisdom they gave me. But as Sustain continues to grow and more gets delegated out, or whatever it may be, I don't want there to be things that I'm asking someone to do that I haven't done myself before. I think it's very hands on in that regard. I don't know if there's a word for what that leadership style would be, but that's definitely how I would describe it.

FT: Have you heard of the Waffle House Model?

AC: No, I have not.

FT: We were just talking about this is class actually. At Waffle House, to be in any position of management, you have to go through every single job in Waffle House, like cooking. And that just reminded me of that exactly.

AC: That's basically the same concept for sure.

FT: That ties in perfectly. Maybe I'll get bonus points!

[laughter]

FT: What would you say are your personal professional strengths and weaknesses?

AC: For strengths I would say it is that courage that is needed to start something. I think it takes a different kind of person to be able to come up with the idea for a nonprofit but then actually put action down. I think there's a lot of ideas floating out of people that plan for a year. They'll be putting together a plan but never actually get around to implementing it, and so I think being someone who implements work is definitely a strength. And then for a weakness I would probably say managing. I think leadership and management are two different things. And for management I can see myself struggling sometimes because following up on individual things-- Once I delegate something, I don't particularly love having to following back up with it. I just like to think that that person's responsible and it has been handled well. Which is not always the best approach. I would say that very minute management is probably on the weakness side.

FT: Awesome. What or who has been your greatest influence?

AC: I feel like it can be kind of cheesy when people pick family members, but I would definitely say that my dad has been my greatest influence.

FT: I knew you were going to say that, because I he's one of my biggest influences.

[laughter]

AC: He's pretty incredible. He's a pastor of a church that he founded, so a founding pastor, and I think that's where I get a lot of my... just having seen him start something and put it into action and making it something that is thriving and sustaining just watching that has been inspiring and has had a lot of influence. But more than that, the way that he loves people, it's hard to put into words honestly. He picks out the person in the corner that has nobody and can connect with them immediately. I mean, he's been all over the world and the thought of someone feeling forgotten is... he can't stand that. He will take up any hobby, for a lot of church members he's done all kinds of hobbies and he's brought all the gear, because it's a way for him to connect with people. His ability to love others is by far the greatest influence in my life. I can say that without any doubt.

FT: That was so precious. And I can attest, Ariel's dad was my pastor for a long time and youth pastor. He's definitely an inspirational man for sure, and I totally guessed that you were going to say that.

[laughter]

FT: Also, I just realized I haven't asked you this on the recording. How old are you?

AC: I am 27.

FT: Incredible. And how old were you when you started Sustain?

AC: I was 24.

FT: That's incredible. I should have mentioned that earlier.

AC: Actually, I think I was 23... You can put down either age.

FT: Well, I just think it says a lot about you that at the age of 23 you were ready to start a nonprofit and be a go-getter.

AC: It definitely says something about me, I don't know what, but it definitely says something.

[laughter]

FT: It says something positive, that's for sure. Okay so, steering back, I asked you about your specific leadership role and how you use your skills. So leaders help to turn ideas into action and empower others. How do you accomplish this?

AC: Really I think Sustain in it of itself is a great example. Our mission is to empower others. We work in other countries, specifically Rwanda and South Sudan, and within those countries we have an indigenous country partner. And then we always work with a local church to impact their community. And our model, even though the community knows that there is an outside person working to partner with the pastors. They know that this pastor doesn't just all of sudden, are able to implement all of these different things. But our model is very much that we work through our indigenous partners to work directly with the local pastor. We don't have to be very much involved. We definitely have oversight over budgets to make sure donor money is used correctly and that proper training is implemented and different things like that. Overall it is very much locally implemented and ran, and that's something I am very passionate about and was very intentional with when I started Sustain. So I think our mission in it of itself is a great example of empowering others.

FT: Cool, Awesome. Earlier you talked about management being one of your weaknesses, and I feel like that ties in pretty closely to delegating. Do you feel it is important to delegate? If so, why? And then when and how do you delegate?

AC: I think it's important, whether I'm good at it or not. I think it's important one, because just from a responsibility standpoint, it's good to have a couple of different hands on things, especially in the nonprofit world to make sure that appropriate actions are taken and there's not someone that's able to do something corrupt or whatever it may be. You hate to think of that in the world of trying to do good, but it is a very real reality. I think it's good to have a couple of different people working on things to be able to see how things are being done. And then also just from the standpoint of being able to grow. Each individual person, we all get twenty four hours. If a person's not willing to delegate then they are going to reach a threshold of what they're going to accomplish. I think it's ultimately really important to grow our impact, to be able to delegate. There's different tasks. Part of the decision of how I delegate depends on what other people's skill sets are, and that's probably the biggest factor when deciding when and how to delegate; it is depending on what resources are available and what skill sets are available to make sure the best job is still getting done. Does that give you enough information on that one?

FT: Absolutely. That was stellar, for lack of a better word. This is kind of a loaded question, so you can take this in whatever direction you feel fit. How do you measure success and how do you learn from failure?

AC: At the end of the day, nonprofits still have to function as a business. They are still very real bills, payroll and different things that matter. And I won't pretend that they don't, but I very much try to view our success not by the numbers for right now. I think that could be a way that we measure success at some point, but I think that if I had let myself get caught up too much in the numbers at the beginning of starting Sustain, it could have been discouraging. Because I think it would be really easy to compare to larger nonprofits that had been existing for a lot longer, and so for us, measuring success looks like the stories that we hear from our partners. Success is being able to have a really great conversation with someone State-side about the work that's been done and getting to open up their worldview a little bit more to different countries. And different things like that. For us right now, measuring success is a little bit more impact-based, as far as stories go, and not trying to focus too much on hard numbers to make sure that we're keeping the priority the priority. And not letting ourself get bogged down if numbers aren't matching what competition may be doing, or whatever it may be. Which I think is a really good approach since I think there is plenty to go around and I think it's best to operate from an abundance mindset. There is enough for everyone to the work that's set out before them. As much as I can stay away from a comparison mindset, I think is best. Was that all of the question or did I miss part of it?

FT: That was definitely it. It said also "How do you learn from failure?" But that's also really general, so if you wanted to share a story instead. I know earlier you mentioned you were having a rough day and the rainy day folder came in handy. Do you want to share that? Whatever is on your heart.

AC: One thing that I think of when talking about failure from the nonprofit standpoint... so before I had started Sustain but was planning on starting it, it was very much in the planning phases, I went and had dinner with a couple who had been international missionaries and was getting their perspective and learning from them about things they learned overseas. One of the most impactful things that the guy said was basically to show grace to our international partners. He said that in his experience that nonprofits don't get themselves a lot of grace from failure. That in the business world it is encouraged to try things and someone may try a new line of business or a new product. And even though it's disappointing when it fails in the business world, it is not the end all be all, or whatever it may be. But when it comes to nonprofits, if something doesn't work it's really discouraging and people take it a lot more seriously. Which donor money is involved, and that is important to be good stewards but I think allowing nonprofits to have the grace to try things and learn and let the partners learn is really important. That is something with the mindset of failure that we've tried to have with Sustain. As long as we are being good stewards, it's okay to have something that didn't work. There was one sewing center that didn't work, and we were able to turn something good out of it and it was fine. But at the beginning it didn't, and it was really hard because like I said, you want to be a really good steward of donor money and different things. But I definitely had to give myself and Sustain grace and not let the failure of trying something in a another country stop us from trying to continue in the work and continue to want to make an impact. I think that's something that nonprofits need to be able to do. To give themselves grace every now and then, but continue to make an impact. And to not be impactful because of the fear of failure.

FT: That is so applicable to so many areas of life. I love love your thoughts on that. This is also kind of broad, so take this in whatever direction you would like. What are two or three action steps that you believe are essential to enable others to be successful?

AC: I think one is definitely what I just talked about. Is letting there be mistakes and failure. If, as a leader, I had everything so tightly gripped that other people can't make mistakes, then they will never be enabled to be successful. Let there be enough trust and, really just the ability for them to make decisions, for them to ever be successful. I could keep something really tight gripped and the action may be successful if I am controlling it, but the other people working on it, I would say would not be successful at that point, if they didn't have any control and make decisions. Allowing other people to make decisions and make mistakes because they're not always going to make the right decision. I mean, I'm not either. Not to say if I was going to take all the control myself that all the right decisions would be made by any means. I think the ability for other people to make decisions is really important. Let's see, what's another... and this goes along the lines of letting people make decisions, but I also think listening and letting them provide information. This is really important when we are working in a new country or a new community or whatever it may be. We want to listen for a long time and let them tell us what the problems are and what's going on. And I think that the more that we listen and then formulate our response, the higher likelihood of being successful. Because we are providing solutions that truly meet the issues that they stated that they have. And we are not making assumptions about what we think is best for that community. I think those are two things that are pretty essential to enabling others to be successful.

FT: Yes, yes, yes. I am writing a paper on voluntourism and that is all so close to my heart right now.

AC: Very much so.

FT: So what advice would you give for building relationships and trust in an organization, or even for your case specifically with Sustain, building trust with those international partners that you have?

AC: One of it is spending time. You do have to, with somebody, especially when you're working internationally, it is not all business. It is very much in other cultures sometimes, relationships are asking about family members, getting to really know someone is really important. That is a big thing. And like we've talked about, I think it's letting them make decisions and truly implement things and run things. They know their countries better than we do. I do think it's wise to start out small. To implement things on a possibly slower timeline at the beginning just to make sure things are done and that you have time to correct or talk through something that may need to be done differently. Or whatever it may be, but the best way to build trust, especially working internationally, is to truly let the partners in those countries be able to implement things in their countries. So that's what Sustain has done and that's been successful for us, so I think it's on the right track.

FT: Awesome. This is our last question, and again, it's kind of loaded so take your time. What do you want your legacy to be?

AC: You may think someone would need to think for a little bit on that, but I can answer it pretty easily, and it's that I loved others well.

FT: That's what you said about your dad.

AC: Yup. That's very much why.. like I said he is, by far, my greatest influence and I want to have a legacy like he has left and is continuing to leave. But it's that I want to love others well. Whether it's people in my everyday life, or those that I'm working with in different cultures or whatever it may be. It can look a lot of different ways, which is why it's vague, but I think that that's ultimately the best legacy that I could leave.

FT: That's so wonderful. I love that, and I can tell you right now that you're doing a spectacular job of leaving that legacy.

AC: Well, thank you.

FT: Just before we go, I wanted to give you the opportunity to promote Sustain. So if you wanted to say your Instagram handle or if you guys a website, just to let everyone know how they can learn more about Sustain International.

AC: So our website is SustainIntl.org. And then our Instagram is @Sustainintl. That's the best way to find us and connect to our website and Instagram, and Facebook as well, you can find us on Facebook. A lot of the same stuff that is posted on Instagram is posted on Facebook, so whatever your preference is. But we're doing a lot of exciting things and coming up. We've got a group trip coming up next year, which I'm super excited about. It will be our first time taking a group to Rwanda. I am super excited about getting to lead that trip and really discuss the posture of traveling internationally and to a new place, and really wanting to do a short-term mission trip really well. So that's something new, and then we've got lots of work being done from cleaning water wells, to sewing centers, lots of things going on. We'd love for people to check us out.

FT: Yay, awesome. And before we go, I also wanted just wanted to get your verbal permission that I can use this interview online and anything with Belmont University.

AC: Yes, you have my permission.

FT: Awesome. Thanks Ariel. You are the best. We really appreciate your time.