Interview of Sarah Worley, November 5, 2020

Grace: Alright there we go, we got it. Woohoo!

Sarah: Yeah hahahaha. I've learned so much more about technology than I ever thought I would learn.

Grace: Hahaha definitely been a weird time.

Grace: Alright. So, I just wanted to start off the interview by saying thank you for taking the time out of your schedule, I know it's very hectic right now. Especially with the Semester coming to close prematurely and everything you know so.

Sarah: Totally, I'm glad to help.

Grace: Thank you. So, for anyone who is watching this, for background, you are Sarah Worley but I call you Professor Worley because you are the teach in one of my classes. You are a current professor at Belmont (University) and the owner of Nashville's famous restaurant "Biscuit Love" and several other businesses.

Sarah: Yep, that's right hahahaha

Grace: Alright so besides the brief overview, could you give a summary or just a description of your life professionally or personally?

Sarah: Yeah, Um I originally entered school like a million years ago in 1998 to study accounting. Three years into that program I realized that I was like very not committed to being in school and got offered a really good job with a medical billing company here in Nashville. So, I left college with 13 credit hours to go. Man, that was probably one of the craziest, most ridiculous decisions of my life but here we are. I spent the next sort of six or seven years of my life working in sort of more corporate settings doing more the admin side of accounting. Then I decided to completely disrupt my life in 2008 and quit my job, enrolled in culinary school, and moved across the country to Colorado where my husband and I went to culinary school he wasn't my husband at the time. He followed me there. I joke with people often that it was like the only good stalker scenario that ever happens. It's that it's your actual boyfriend that follows you across the country. But we went to culinary school, got married in between our first and second year and then quickly found out where having our daughter. So, we landed back in Nashville and we decided to open a food truck. Around that same time, our daughter was about 18 months old. I had gotten to the point where I realized that I probably needed to finish my degree to be able to do what I wanted to do. So, I enrolled in Belmont, which is not where I had started my schooling and finished my undergraduate degree there. Then went straight into my Masters of Accounting program at Belmont as well. So, I was finishing up my Masters, were running a food truck, and we ended up transitioning that food truck into a brick-and-mortar restaurant in 2015. So, the first Biscuit Love restaurant opened in The Gulch and then since then we've opened two more Biscuit Love locations and then also a wood fired pizza location all here in Nashville. Then I guess it was about 18 months ago, almost two years ago now I started exploring what it would look like for me to go and get my PhD because I missed being on the college campus, which everyone in my family thinks is hilarious because I was so bad at college to start with. So, but yeah so that's what brought me back to Belmont um teaching was "let me test this out" make sure I really enjoyed doing this and I've told people a bunch like it's like marries sort of some of my very favorite parts of being a business owner which is being able to spend time with and mentor young people who are sort of defining what the rest of their life is going to look like. What makes it better in the teaching part is I'm not trying to get something out of them in return. So, it's really- it really gets to be a different type of relationship where I get to invest in the people who are invested in whatever we're doing so it's great.

Grace: Sounds good! Sounds like a long journey.

Sarah: Yeah! Lots of starts and stops. I think what you'll realize, as most people do when they're older, is that that's life. Lots of starts and stops.

Grace: Yeah hahaha. So, you've given your whole story but reflecting back on it, what part of your personal experience is most important to you; the most life changing you could say?

Sarah: Yeah, yeah, I think that decision in sort of 2000/2008 where I just sort of needed to have this life disruption. I think it has been like a really defining moment for the rest of my life. You know those 12/13 years ago, but the reality is -is I think so many people follow the path that they think they're supposed to follow you know? They go to college, they get a job, and they do that job for 50 years and they retire from. That could have very easily been my path, but there was just something in me that was like "I think my life is supposed to look different than this. I think I'm really supposed to be passionate about what I do every day and excited about what I do every day and I'm not" and I think that decision to say like it's OK to hit restart probably was one of the most pivotal decisions. I think it's allowed me to be a much better business owner and I think it's allowed me to be a much better mother and wife you know. I think that decision then is so indicative of this sort of the decision I'm doing and making now like I could really easily sort of kick back and not you know keep riding out what I'm riding in right now and not pursue something different but there's like still something in me that's like "keep learning, keep growing, keep pursuing something different".

Grace: That's good, that's good. So next question let me know if I need to explain more Most salient for you Is what cultural identities and experiences are most salient for you?

Sarah: So, when I think about cultural identity in sort of like how it's impacted me and sort of has moved through my life and how I've moved through my life, I think sort of the biggest marker for me is privilege and like recognizing privilege. I think I wasn't very good as a young person recognizing the privilege that I had been given because of my cultural identity and because I had grown up a white and with educated parents. I don't think I fully recognized what type of privilege that lent me in the sense that I just had a leg up and I don't think I ever really appreciated that and thus going into my professional career working with a lot of people who haven't had that same privilege. I think that's probably become one of the parts of my life that I think really helps me navigate where I am right now because I'm working with so many people who are different than me and haven't had that same privilege. I've been able to leverage that into a new level of understanding with the people around me.

Grace: Well, that's- that's really good. Especially with everything going on in today's world with not only the election, but everything leading up to the election. I think that's it's really good personal reflection on your part.

Sarah: Yeah, I think what happened is you know when we when we first opened our business, you know Carl and I were really dedicated to our employee's experience like we thought that that was very important you know so we were always invested in others, but I don't think we truly understood what that investment was going to look like until he opened the restaurant. What happened is you know like we went into it going like we're going to provide YMCA memberships and we're going to make sure people are healthy and like all this stuff. Then I had people who had never had a bank account or had never had health insurance and so didn't know how to navigate the medical system or didn't know how to navigate a banking system or who didn't know how to navigate national public transportation systems. What I think it did was shine a huge spotlight on like "Hey like you want to do good and you want to give people YMCA membership and it's not that, that's not good." But that's just not what they need yet you know and so being able to like sort of check our own privilege in that moment and say "OK, we need to be walking in other people's shoes and like recognizing their needs are different than ours". You're totally right like with this election; I think you know it definitely has highlighted the chasm between different populations of our country.

Grace: Yeah, it really plays into one of the books actually we read for class. It recognized the difference because it talked about service groups coming to different parts of the world and they painted the same church like eight times in one summer.

Sarah: What did you read?! What did you read?!

Grace: It was, oh gosh, I think it was "Where am I Giving?"

Sarah: Yeah, there's I mean it's so true that like I think that's a reference in one of Jenna Homemakers books too and it's like I mean people dedicated to doing the right thing but like this is not what people need they need some chickens so they can feed themselves.

Grace: Exactly.

Sarah: Ya know?

Grace: Exactly. It was a very eye-opening book-

Sarah: It's great

Grace: -and learning what actually need to do and do it sustainably.

Sarah: A hundred percent.

Grace: -Versus painting a church. Alright so, the next question is more about leadership. It's similar to the previous questions, but what experiences are in your life have shaped you as a leader?

Sarah: Whew! Lots of mistakes. It was interesting, I was reading something the other day and it was talking about you know I've read all these leadership books and the one thing they all have in common is that it's typically leader's mistakes that most define them. I think you know that is a perfect example of is it's like you go in with really great intentions and you're like "Whoa I was like so far off of what the actual needs of my community were" you know? I think we've been really committed Biscuit Love to be a community that supports growth and in order to support growth you have to support failure because that's where people most often grow. So, what I would say is like gosh the things that shaped me as a leader or the places where we just fell down and got it wrong or where I fell down and got it wrong. Whether it was, you know, not handling a conversation in the right way or you know issuing a directive that didn't make sense for my community. You know, not acknowledging people's needs within our community. I think there's just these moments where you make these mistakes and you can either decide to sort of like live in them or live with them or you can choose to be vulnerable and stand up and say "OK I got that wrong and I'm sorry and we're going to try something different" and I think that's probably most defined my leadership is really embracing vulnerability being in a spot where I can own my mistakes and fall on the sword and you know all of those metaphors. I think what it's done is it's created an environment where my staff trusts me but also my team isn't afraid to make mistakes and so they try really innovative things, and they aren't afraid to present ideas and they aren't you know afraid to fall down because they recognize that like we all do it including me so yeah that's probably it.

Grace: That's really good.

Sarah: Hey Grace, just really quickly I wanna let you know my daughter is about to get into the car but as I pull closer to this building, sometimes the internet services goes out. So, if it does, I will call you right back, I will hop right back on.

Grace: So next question is, were you called into leadership at Belmont, as a business owner, as just in general were you called to leadership or do you feel like it's because of held convictions like things that?

Sarah: Yeah no, this is that are leaders born or made question. I think that's a chicken or an egg question. I think, my mom jokes all the time that I've been a leader since I was two years old when my sister was born. She's like you've been bossing people around since then. I think you know I think leadership is a really interesting thing because I don't think it's necessarily tied to title or position. I think leadership is something everyone can do an exhibit and whatever their small space or corner is. That's something that we've tried to really reinforce within the culture of Biscuit Love is that you know everyone has the opportunity to be a leader no matter what your job title is. So, was I called into leadership? I think I've just always gravitated towards trying to make things better and I've always had the ability to people towards that I think that the interesting thing is you know I did a convo at Belmont last year you know one of my challenges to everyone was to find the spaces in their life. Where you know whether it was a club, or you know the four people living in a dorm or whatever where there was like a clear missing leader and to try to figure out if they could fill those spaces because I don't think that you have to have a title to be good to be a good leader to get people to want to follow you know.

Grace: Alright, another obstacle question. So, how have you learned-

Sarah: Love it.

Grace: Yeah haha. How have you learned from obstacles and challenges that you've faced in your life?

Sarah: Man, so like I think the first key is vulnerability right? It's being able to even like recognize or acknowledge that there is an obstacle you know because I think for so many people are like have a really hard time like owning only when things are going wrong. I think you know the ability to acknowledge that first is probably the first step. My gosh obstacles and challenges happen all the time. I think sometimes they're big, sometimes they're small but I feel like if you're a good leader they're always significant right? So, I think like a really good example is like very recently like I've had to do a complete overhaul of one of our restaurants. When I say complete overhaul, I mean like had to move our entire leadership team out. Like you know in those moments right it would have been really easy for me to blame a lot of other people for what had happened there. But I think like good leaders really look around and say like "OK yes all of these decisions all of these challenges, all of these problems were not necessarily mine but what was my role in all of them" because regardless of whether the person making the end decision, and this is in or not you know you are ultimately responsible for those who report to you. So, I think like being able to acknowledge and take the time to like really examine what's yours and take ownership of that and figure out how you're going to make it better is like where you know those obstacles help in overall investment.

Grace: So, we talked about obstacles, we talked about leadership a little so let's get into leadership. What does Leadership in itself mean to you?

Sarah: So, I think leadership probably for me means you know taking a group of people towards an end goal. I try to remind myself and I try to remind the leaders around me often that really good leaders are just as capable as of leading people to the right place as they are to the wrong place you know? So, if you have this like really dynamic leadership style where people are going to follow you no matter what you can just as easily take them off the cliff as you can up the mountain. So, for me really good leadership is not just defined by the fact that people want to follow you, it's also defined by the fact that you surround yourself with your weaknesses and you surround yourself with people who aren't afraid to challenge you. You surround yourself with people who make you better and stronger because none of us get to succeed on our own or we can succeed on our own, but then we're also failing on our own.

Grace: So, what do you think is a characteristic or a sign of a bad leader?

Sarah: Oof um blaming others. I think by the very nature of being the leader you know you get to be the end all be all when it comes to wrong-doing. Grace I'm going to start my car so it's probably gonna just like shift, one second. OK you there?

Grace: Yep.

Sarah: Ok great. Like I think blaming others is one thing that I really watch for. I'm like huh, the first person to claim you know the victory but the last person to admit the defeat. You know, first person to take all the glory but the last person to admit when they've done something wrong. I think that's, for me, is probably the biggest indicator of someone who's not a great leader.

Grace: So how would you characterize or describe Authorizer describe your leadership style personally?

Sarah: Yeah, I mean I think there's lots of, I think, buzzwords all of that stuff around leadership right now. You know the methodology that I've always followed is you know rooted in servant leadership. So, the idea that you are you know leading from the bottom to the top instead of the other way down other way around instead of from the top to the bottom. I feel like my job as the leader of my organization is to remove roadblocks for all the people around me who are doing their jobs you know. Then I explained to them that their job is to remove the roadblocks to the people that are reporting to them you know. I think our job as good leaders is to step in to find a course you know so where are we headed and be really clear about that you know. What is the goal? What is the mission? What are the core values? Then empowering the people around, you to make good decisions so that you keep moving towards that goal because you can't as a leader do everything yourself or you can try but doesn't usually work. So, like I really view my role as a leader you know and one of the primary functions of my job is to serve the people that reports me you know to make their jobs better to make their jobs easier so that they can then pass that upstream all the way to our very frontline employees who you know are ultimately the ones that are interfacing with our guests. So, if I want them to understand hospitality and if we want them to understand what it's meant to serve just basically what we do right like they need to see that modeled.

Grace: So, do you believe in empowering the people around you when being a leader is the most important part of being leader or do you think it's just one of the most important parts?

Sarah: Oh, I would say it's probably the most important part. I think the minute you start thinking that you can do it all is the minute you start failing.

Grace: Exactly. So as a professional, what do you think that your strengths are?

Sarah: Whew. I am not afraid to have tough conversations. Um you know and I think I've learned and honed the ability to do that with grace and mercy and compassion um which I wouldn't say I was always really good. I definitely think that's something that I've learned and practiced a lot. I think that I'm able to create very clear vision to define where we're going. Um I think that I'm really good at empowering the people around me to also be able to make decisions to keep us moving in the right direction. What else? I think I'm vulnerable and I'm not afraid to share that vulnerability with the people who are in my organization. You know I think you know the idea that as a leader you're supposed to be perfect or be above reproach or you know whatever is like a bunch of crap because everyone sees through that right? You know like we're all people, we're just making choices. Not going to get them all right and but I think being able to own those mistakes and being able to be vulnerable around your organization around your team. Being able to say I'm sorry I got it wrong and we're going to fix it is probably one of the most valuable things I do on a daily basis. You know I hope it's one of the most valuable things I do in that classroom too because I've spent a lot of my life not getting it right and there's still a lot of my life where I don't get it right.

Grace: So, on the other hand, what do you think are your professional weaknesses?

Sarah: I'm a major procrastinator I'm very, very bad at trying to do too much and saying yes to too much which then makes the procrastination even worse. Um let's see I can be really tough, and I think sometimes I have to re-have conversations. You know that happened this morning you know I was you know I said I'm not afraid to have conversations which I'm not but there's still a right way and a wrong way to have them you know. I was having a conversation with one of the leaders in our organization this morning about him taking on more than he should you know. He's saying yes to everything and not saying no to everything. But I didn't take the time to lead with all of the things you've been taking on like none of them would have happened if you had it and I appreciate so much your willingness to jump in where you needed you know. So, I probably was more aggressive than I needed to be, and I didn't take the time to good compassion into the sort of reprimands. I can get frustrated really easily my frustration tolerance is low I think being a mom has definitely helped me when it comes to that. I have to remind myself that not everyone's in the same place that I am. Which like I said was really helpful with a little girl because it's like my mom used to say this like she always had this very funny statement for me, or I would be so frustrated at my daughter for something and she looked at me and she said "You know see her she's only been doing this for four years or five years or 10 years" like this big thing we call life. She's only been doing it for 10 years like how often do you get it wrong at 40 years. You know so I think that's softened that a bit which is helpful.

Grace: Do you feel that your weaknesses have made you a better or worse leader?

Sarah: For sure better. But the only reason I think they've made me better is because I'm not afraid to acknowledge them or recognize them in the moment. I think- I think when they become- when you ignore them or when you don't acknowledge them but they're still happening. That's when you compromise your leadership.

Grace: So, who or what do you believe has been your greatest influence in your life?

Sarah: Well, my faith for sure. Um you know I also think I've taken bits and pieces from lots of different places you know. There were professors at Belmont (University) that were huge influences on the course that I took. There's authors and you know books I've read that have become huge influences you know like probably like my face would probably be #1. #2 would probably be my mom you know. She was- I don't think my mom would have ever considered herself like a leader or in a leadership position if that makes sense you know. I think I would argue with that, you know, she had four kids, ran a house, and had an amazing career and all of those things. But I don't think she ever felt like she was like the leader necessarily but she never ever shyed away from being one. I think that's probably one of the main things that defined that you can be a leader wherever you're at sort of philosophy that I have leadership doesn't come with a title comes with responsibility it comes with owning what's important, yeah.

Grace: What do you feel has been an unexpected influence in your life?

Sarah: I think parenting probably. I don't think I ever expected how much parenting was going to influence how I led the people around me. I think becoming a parent just it changes how you see everything because you have this tiny little human who then gets to be a not so tiny human just watching everything that you do, and I think it really influenced like and made me really contextualize the idea that people are always watching you know. When you're a leader of an organization, your people don't stop watching what you do. They don't stop watching the decisions that you make, and I think you know learning that your integrity cannot be just be something that's written down on a piece of paper you need to act that out every day like was probably taught to me by being a parent you know. It was just like because it's you choose to model it. You choose to model it over and over and over and over again and you know you sort of have to put action into your values if that makes sense.

Grace: So, do you think parenting has made you a better leader?

Sarah: 100% without a doubt. It softened me a ton too Grace. I used to be like just you know, I think I had this false sense when I was younger that like being a leader meant you were tough, and I do think that it requires some level of thick skin, but I don't think everybody responds to tough. Some people do but I think you have to figure out what works with the people around you and what type of leader you want to be. What you want people to say about you and I sort of I think before becoming a parent I walked through life thinking like I don't care what people think about me and like "oh they're just they're just mad 'cause I'm tough" you know. It's like well maybe that's not always that so leaders helped a ton.

Grace: So, leaders help to turn ideas into action and empower others, how do you feel you accomplish this in your daily life?

Sarah: So, like I think there's three steps to sort of getting to the end goal right and turning it into action. I think the first is like having a very clear vision I think it's really, really, really, important to have a vision for people to know where they're headed. I think the second part of that is having a really strong set of core values because if you don't have a strong, strong set of core values your leadership within your organization will never know how to make decisions because they don't have sort of like a set of rules to put their decision-making through you know. One of those things tell my leaders all the time like in our group you know because in my position now I'm sort of the leader of leaders but what I say all the time is if you put your decisions through our core values then you can't make the wrong decision. It might not be the decision I would want, but it won't be the wrong decision you know. I think so setting out core values for people to be able to like choose their actions based on is really valuable. Then I think the third one is like inspiring people to do the next best thing or the next right thing you know. So set out a good road map, set up good parameters for people to function within them and then empower them to make the moves that they need to make to get to where they're going.

Grace: Do you feel it's important to delegate in your professional life?

Sarah: Absolutely. I could not get anything done if I did not. Yeah, I mean like I don't know- I don't even know how anyone thinks that so my sort of idea of delegation is number one hire your weaknesses. The best leaders are always going to hire the things that they're the worst at. You know if you're really bad at accounting the first thing you want to do is hire good accountant. If you're really good at people you want to hire someone who's doing the people stuff you know. So, hire your weaknesses, but then delegate and trust those people will to do what their jobs are. So, you talked about this earlier, but that that was probably one of my biggest failures as early leader at Biscuit Love is, I kept hiring managers and then I kept trying to do their job for them. It doesn't work that way, it just got really frustrated really fast and you get really frustrated really fast and then you're doing everybody's job. You're like why am I paying other people to do their job? I don't know and then he realized oh that was my fault because I never actually let them do what they were supposed to do huh.

Grace: You delegate in your professional life; do you delegate in your personal life?

Sarah: Oh gosh, yeah yeah running four businesses and we have a 10-year-old so my husband and I for sure 100%. Like there's definitely, there are definitely things that I do not do at home and there are definitely things that I just know like I need its kind of like and this is going to sound like the silliest example, but it's like my husband a few years ago heard me at cleaning lady for Mother's Day. I think this was maybe in my 2000 and I don't know it's probably two or three years ago. So, he hires this cleaning lady, she's supposed to come once, and she hasn't stopped coming because I said like "Oh my gosh you just freed up 3 hours of my life to be able to enjoy my family in a different way". You know it was three hours that we were spending every Saturday to like completely clean the house and so like maybe that's like the poorest example of delegation but I'm like so happy that someone else does that and like I could do it. There's definitely always a risk reward right like we're spending money on that we could spend on something else but for me it like being able to delegate something like that out has been able to like free up time so that we can go hiking on a Saturday instead of cleaning.

Grace: Do you feel it's important to delegate as a leader, as a successful leader?

Sarah: Yes, yeah, I mean I don't think that you're capable, I don't think any leader is capable, of doing everything you know. I think it, I think one of the best or the biggest signs of a really good leader too is like how they're growing the people around them and empowering the people around them to do things that are outside of their job.

Grace: In your opinion, how do you measure success?

Sarah: Well, you know that is complicated. I think it depends. I think you know this is going to be like my great ratio answer, it depends. You know it really does depend though because it depends in different seasons, it depends in different stages of a business or life or whatever. I think attitudes and the feelings of the people around a leader or probably the biggest indicator of how a leader is doing at leading. You know but that even can be a double-edged sword right because I think people can always perform to the metric that you're looking at so if the goal like you know so when I'm measuring performance evaluations for example like if I was only measuring on how satisfied are the employees, the business could be in a terrible position. But the employees could you know what I mean and if I was only measuring on profits or the profitability of the business the profits could be really great, and everyone might hate their job, so I think it depends. I think it's when people find the balance of like having a healthy organization culturally that is also healthy financially and physically. Um but I think if you want to take like the business context out of it and you were just talking about like how are people leading like within their own organization. Whether it be a club or whatever like I think the easiest way to measure it is you know how do the people around them feel. Do they feel seen? Do they feel acknowledged? Do they feel recognized? Do they feel heard?

Grace: How do you personally measure success in your businesses, as a professor, as a mother just how do you measure that?

Sarah: I'm very bad at measuring myself. I think everyone is always more critical of themselves. So, I would say that like most of the time I just think I'm failing terribly at all of them. No, I think it's I think it depends right, I think it depends on the season. Like as a professor I think- I think I could measure myself on how my students do in my class. But the reality is it's like that's not how I measure success there. How I measure success there is what are the strides that people have made you know? From point A to point B did I reach out? Did I connect? Did I try to encourage? Did I see problems before they came up? Did we find accurate solutions? You know same thing with being a mother like I think there's different seasons. Like man if you ask me how I was doing as a mother in March, I would have told you pretty terrible. Like I was trying to teach my child and all we did was fight the whole time you know. You know now if you were to ask me like how are you doing as a mother, I'd be like well she's not learning anything but we're having a lot of fun and I think our hearts in a good place. So, you know I think- I think it's different in different seasons when it comes to my organization, I feel most successful as a leader when my team has what they need to make the next right decision whether that's encouragement or something physical or whether it's training and I think probably for me like in all of the areas in my life. I measure success based on like am I growing or not like am I doing it better today than I did it yesterday you know. Am I investing in myself too? You know have you grown and understood this a little bit more and you know. Have I made an attempt and been successful at doing something differently but like better than yesterday?

Grace: Do you feel success is linear?

Sarah: No, no, not at all, no. That's part of the whole it depends answer. You're right I think, there are times when I'm really succeeding with my staff and I'm really not succeeding with my investors. You know and so I think it's like it sounds like such a terrible answer to say, it depends really does you know because the reality is everyone is trying to get something different out of a business. Your investors are looking for profits, but you might be looking for staff needs you know finding the balance between those things is really, really difficult but like trying to put that on a single singular linear path makes no sense.

Grace: How do you feel you can learn from failure, personally?

Sarah: Yeah, I mean like I said at the beginning. All the places where I have failed, have become some of the most pivotal things that have happened in my career. Those moments where I just got it really wrong it you know it changes the way you see things. It changes the way you think about things. It gives you the opportunity to be vulnerable which I think is so important. Yeah, I mean gosh, failure right like I don't think you meet many very successful entrepreneurs that don't have just a huge failure story somewhere in their background. You know I think it creates tenacity and I think it creates like enough gumption to get up and try it again.

Grace: Do you feel like trying and trying again after failure is an important part of being a leader?

Sarah: For sure, I mean people need to know that you're not going to give up. I mean no one wants to follow the person that just gives up the first time they encounter adversity.

Grace: So, we touched a little bit on COVID-19, during the whole epidemic do you think that your views as a leader have changed or your experience?

Sarah: I think I've had like this single most difficult and most challenging year as a leader of my life. Yeah, for sure I think being prepared for the pivot is new vocabulary for me. Um you know I think we've been so fortunate at Biscuit Love to have a business that has just been blessed and I think, and we still are you know. I don't think we've ever stopped evolving. But like really being prepared to do a full-on pivot with your business, I think it's not something that most people were there for. I also think just like some of the challenges regarding staffing is here you know at one point I had to lay off my entire hourly staff and I don't think I was fully prepared for the emotional experience or hardship that that would create. Um especially when like you go through something like that but then you have to keep moving forward. But at the same time like what I'll say to that end is you know our when I had to lay off my staff, it was the singular most difficult day of my career. But I think I was able to look for the blessings in it and I think I was so blessed that day by our staff um because of the culture that had been built you know. We had built a culture of compassion and love and grace and mercy and all those things and so when I took the time, I actually laid off every single staff member myself. I had a one-on-one conversation with everyone um because I didn't think it was the manager's responsibilities to do that, I think you know we were the ones that were making decisions for the organization and it was nothing their managers had done or didn't do to get us there so like I wanted to be the one taking responsibility for it. I was- I was so blessed by their responses you know. I think that they know my heart I think that they genuinely knew I would not be doing it if I didn't have to be. But I also think that they we're very concerned for each other instead of themselves and that was a really proud moment for me because it was like all that groundwork, we had laid down for culture was like a real thing and I really got to see it play out in the face of major difficulty if that makes sense.

Grace: Would you change any part of your personal story? If you had a chance to go back, would you change anything? Would you do it differently?

Sarah: No, no, I mean I think you can't- I can't think of any part of my story that I could take out that would still get me to where I am, so I think all of those little moments let up see where I am now. I'm thankful and I'm grateful. I think they're all lessons that I take into all my decisions and all of my actions and I think if you take any of them away the picture is different. I don't want the picture to be different. Maybe, maybe I wouldn't have run up all the credit card debt as a freshman in college but haha.

Grace: What do you what do you believe are two 3 action steps that are essential to enable others to be successful?

Sarah: Seeing helping people identify their core values I think is really important you know. I think so many people sort of have these like esoteric ideas of what they believe in and I think really establishing what people believe in and then using those values to help you make decisions is really important. So, you know, establishing those especially within an organization is key because if people don't have those, they have no context or no lens to put their decision-making through. I think #2 is empowering people to make decisions but then also allowing them to make mistakes. I'm like a huge Bernay Brown fan if you haven't read any of her books on leadership she just like she's a vulnerability researcher so she has this really interesting take on leadership but you know she says all the time like it's so interesting to me because I visit all these places that like believe at the core of their innovative businesses whether their tech or whatever and she said and then everyone is so afraid to make a mistake that no one is innovating anything because like by the very nature of innovation is like doing it wrong. Doing it again it's still not right, doing it wrong you know what I mean. Like keep making something better and so um yeah, I think like allowing people to make mistakes is really, really important Then you know I think lastly like really acknowledging all the small wins along the way or what create success for a leader.

Grace: So, what advice do you have for building relationships and trust in an organization?

Sarah: So, I think that you have to follow through. You have to do what you say you're going to do and if you don't you need to apologize. Um I think you know that's like the very foundation of integrity you know. Um I also think being transparent, not hiding things from people, is really important you know. When I had to lay off my entire staff it wasn't the first time that they were thinking that something was wrong in our business. Do you know what I mean? There was lots of constant communication about what was happening very honest communication about where we were financially through the beginning. So, keep being honest about where you are. Owning mistakes is so important. I think one of the biggest sticking points for young leaders especially is they don't like to admit when their wrong which usually means someone else is getting blamed for something. I tell people all the time like if you will just fall on your sword over and over and over again even when it's not your fault you know what happens is your staff trusts you, they don't feel like they're getting thrown under the bus all the time. Now that's not to mean that you don't acknowledge the problems or opportunities and fix them. But when it comes to like who takes the blame like I think it's really important for us to like to figure out what pieces we have to own ourselves. Um yeah, I think that's probably. I also think people need to know that you care about them. They genuinely, that you genuinely care about them. Like you don't have to like them. I think that's where a lot of people get it wrong, it's like "Well I don't like this person" it's like "well you don't have to like that person for them to be successful or for you to be a good leader to them" but I do think people need to know that you genuinely care about them as humans.

Grace: So, you feel there's a certain level of respect that is required?

Sarah: Oh, for sure yeah, for sure.

Grace: Do you feel like if that's missing from the equation that it will negatively impact the overall mood?

Sarah: Oh 100% yeah no I mean I just don't think people- So like we have this sort of saying within Biscuit Love's culture and it's to assume positive intent. Which I think helps undo a lot of what you're talking about right like the trustworthiness and stuff because sometimes people just they don't always put it through that assuming positive intent filter. So you know you just don't always know what people are going through in the moment and so first of all if you assume that they're trying to do the right thing which in most cases most people are trying to do the right thing they might not be getting it right at all but they're probably trying to so I think when you assume positive intent we respect the person you know and you respect their integrity first which then gives you a platform to help try to alter behavior.

Grace: What advice would you give someone who is going through a really hard time in their life and they just want to give up and settle for a desk job, 9-5 good ole (job)?

Sarah: Ahaha a lot they'll say things like this. They'll say "you know like I'm dying to do like I want to open a food truck" that's a really good example because you know there's a lot of misunderstanding about what a food truck looks like. But my answer to them is always like "Do you love it?" because I think if you don't love it when it's going well, you're never going to love it when it's going bad. I would love like the answer to be like pick yourself up by the bootstraps and like it's going to be great but like the reality is if your heart isn't in it, then you just need to walk away from it you know because that flows through the entire organization right you know. It's that it's that idea of like the belief cycle. I don't know if you've studied this at all, but there's this concept called the Beliefs Cycle where you know my beliefs inform my actions and then my actions inform your beliefs which then inform your actions which then typically confirm what my belief was in the beginning. So, the example is always like um you know I just get really a real-life example so our Franklin store, which is a store that we just had to sort of do this complete overhaul in like I had gone to this like sort of dark place where I was like it's never going to win it's always going to be a pain it any. Then what happens is like I don't go there as much, or I go in there with a negative attitude or I say things like that out loud in front of people right and so then that affects their belief. Then they start underperforming so they start you know not cleaning like they should, or they start not treating each other the way that they should, or they start not believing in the culture because I don't believe in the culture so why would they believe in the culture and then all of a sudden it comes back to me. I'm like see told you it's just going to keep failing you know and so it's this idea that our beliefs inform our actions which inform other people's beliefs. If you aren't voicing care and concern and if you aren't voicing strength to something, then you're doing the opposite. So, I do think it's really important to like really, really, really believe and love what you're doing. Make sure that that's what you're speaking into the world because I do think that that affects your decision making.

Grace: What advice would you give your younger self?

Sarah: Um so a thing I thought about, I talked about this a little bit earlier but like I was very tough. So, um like I said I'm not afraid to have conversations and I think for a long time like I had convinced myself that being brutally honest with people you know. I was like OK regardless of the circumstances and so I think I wish I could go back and like undo that part of my belief cycle because I do think like honesty is really important. I think that honesty is really kind, but I think that you can be honest from a spirit of generosity or you can be honest from a place of being mean or unfair or unkind. I wish I could go back and tell, teach myself that you know like way back when because I think I probably hurt a lot of people you know because I said things that even though they might have been true um just it I didn't handle myself in a way that I would be proud of now. I think I would have understood leadership the foundations of leadership a lot differently a lot earlier if I had had that advice.

Grace: Do you think legacies are important?

Sarah: 100 percent, 100 percent, yeah. I think, you know, I think. I don't think there's anything I do in this world be it my business or my teaching or my parenting or being a spouse where I'm not constantly thinking about what the story is it's left behind. What impact did I make? What change did I make in someone's life or experience? I think that's the very definition of what legacy is, what you leave behind.

Grace: So, what do you think is going to be your legacy or what do you what your legacy to be?

Sarah: I want my daughter to love Jesus first. I want my daughter to understand that the way we get to love Jesus on earth is still of his people, all of them. Ones that look like us, ones that don't look like us, ones that believe in Jesus and ones that don't. Ones you know that need our help. I pray that the people that work for me, um, believe that they left my business whether it's you have to go to another career where or even if I fired them and that there was something valuable that they learned while they were with my organization. Um I think that I pray that people who worked with me or I worked under me or you know whatever um I feel like I saw them for who they really were and what they were capable of. Truthfully like I think one of Carl's and my biggest missions with Biscuit Love was to create a different restaurant culture than what we had grown up in and to create a safe place for all people you know. I hope that's Biscuit Love's legacy um yeah so.

Grace: Yeah, legacies are very hard conversation to have honestly

Sarah: They really are because I think I don't think enough people think about them when they're going through their day-to-day lives. You know how is what I'm doing right now going to impact this person or this universe or this world or this restaurant or this Nashville you know for years to come? I think that when you do start thinking about it that way, it changes your decisions.

Grace: Mhm well, that's all the questions I have actually.

Sarah: Awesome hahaha. I hope it was helpful.

Grace: It was very helpful. I really, really enjoyed this conversation thank you so much for talking to me as actually is very delightful conversation it was a lot of amazing advice you're really inspiring honestly-

Sarah: Thank you

Grace: -just thank you so much for meeting with me.

Sarah: Oh, it was absolutely my pleasure. So, if you have any follow up questions or need anything else you know where to find me.

Grace: Mhm yeah haha .

Sarah: Ok awesome Grace thank you so much.

Grace: Alright thank you, bye.