Richard Messick
You can you could say that I've been working in this field of legal development
for. almost well, twenty five years and before that, I worked as a lawyer in the U.S. and was involved in. Public policy and by legal development, I mean helping. Less developed countries create the laws and the legal institutions, courts, legislatures, supreme audit agency is necessary for them, for their economy to grow and their citizens to become wealthier. And one way we talk about that work is it's promoting the rule of law. And so you could say, I've been involved when you can't work in the United States as a lawyer working for the US Senate and then working, helping poor countries, you could say, I've been doing the rule of law work for 40 years.Interviewer
just a question on so to get you to get where you are now. What do you think?
What jobs or institutions have you worked for that you think got you to where you are today? What projects did you take on?Richard Messick
Well. To do what I do today. I need both a good understanding of the law and how
you right, laws get them enacted by a legislature and then how the courts enforce them.So what, working for a law firm in New York? I got a close up view of how laws
that affect large corporations operate in practice and then working for the Committee on Foreign Relations in the U.S. Senate. I learned how you get laws or proposals, proposed laws, or legislation converted into actual laws, what it takes, both technically in terms of how you write them so that so that when you pass them, people can understand them as well as how you win the support you need to get a majority of the legislature to approve your proposal, and that's really what I have done ever since I joined the World Bank in 1997 is apply those skills to help countries enact laws that improve the operation of their economy, protect citizens rights, and not only do you need to have the law, but you need to get it passed. So you need a capable legislature. And so you work sometimes on helping improve the way the legislatures work or even sometimes the way that elections are held for members of the legislature. And then I did a lot of work on improving the court systems in poor countries. So they were able to adjudicate disputes when someone was accused of breaking the law, whether the law they broke was criminal law and they were being prosecuted for a criminal violation or whether it was a question of they didn't fulfill their obligations under a contract and the other party to the contract was bringing a lawsuit against them.Richard Messick
I mean, that's how the law is fairly long and complicated interconnected set of
institutions that, of course, and as we've gotten wealthier and technologically more advanced, it's become ever more complex. And, you know, helping a country set up, for example, a commission or an agency to regulate the discharge of pollutants into the air or into the water. How do you organize a commission so it's effective to have one person to head the commission or should have multiple members in the vote? How should the law be written so that people are likely to follow it? All those are legal questions. I mean, what makes it so interesting is they are all a combination of legal issues. And issues relating to the area you are addressing, you know, if it's water pollution, well, OK, what kinds of things should not be discharged into the water and how do we define it? And, you know, the best way to regulate it. And so to do that, you've got to consult with people that are, you know, environmental engineers and hydrologists.So, you know, in a way, being doing rule of law work is a license to work in
lots of other areas, help experts in other areas, fit laws around what they do.Interviewer
So you said you got hired by the World Bank in 1997, right. What was your
position when you worked for them and how did you find yourself?Richard Messick
Well, I got to the World Bank because I'd been doing a project in Peru on
reforming the laws governing the ownership of land and the rights in poor countries. Land is the most valuable asset. That's most people have so often its their only asset, and it's important that it be legally protected and that they have the ability to use it, borrow money against or to sell or to lead to their children. But I was working on a project in Peru and a lot of people from the World Bank. The rights to property are critical issue and economic development. And a lot of people from the World Bank came down to observe our project. And I was the only non-Peruvian involved. And since I had a bit of distance from the project, because I didn't work full time in Peru on that, although I worked a great deal on it, I got to know the bank people because while I was in a hotel, they'd been in the same hotel and they'd want somebody, you know, obviously fluent in English and who had a little distance from the project, who was--Interviewer
Unbiased?
Richard Messick
Yeah. And so, I could say, look, here's where I think it's working well, here's
where I think if you're concerned, if you want to take this work to a country in Africa, you might want to bear in mind that here are some things about Peru that have made the project easier to do here. That might not be the same in Zambia or might not be the same in the Philippines, and so a lot of the World Bank staff got to appreciate that, you know. You know and and to put the whole thing in in context, because one of the big problems you have in economic development is, you know, something works in some country and it works because of a lot of factors. But people are so anxious to help other countries and say, oh, well, it worked in Peru. It'll work in Zambia.Interviewer
Well, yeah, they think of it like a business model.
Richard Messick
Well or the cliche is one size fits all. And the fact of the matter is, of
course, things are different in Zambia than in Peru in some ways and in some ways the same. And the skill is to say, OK. Are they this enough alike that this project would work if we tried it in Zambia? Or and what would we have to change about this project to fit it into the Zambian context? Yeah, and so that's really what the because the rule of law, while it's on a very general level, it means the same thing that, you know, people obey rules that are written in advance that everyone knows. And whether you're the head of the country or the poorest person, you're all bound by the same rule and so forth and so on. Those general principles all apply. But when you're creating things like a court system or even how you have titles for land, you have to take account of the context and the really poor country, the country may not be able to afford the kind of land registry on a fancy computer and so forth, that a wealthy country like the U.S. has. Or because of the country's history, it's an Islamic country, the court system has to be set up differently than in France.Interviewer
Yeah you get that cultural difference, the Shia and Sunni, in the Middle East
Richard Messick
So because of this experience I had working in land rights in Peru and and able
to tell these. Help these people from the World Bank think how it might be different in different countries, when the banks started a group to work on the rule of law issues, legal reform, helping countries create the right legal institutions of the courts, land registries, legislatures, they hired me to run the group.Interviewer
So would you consider that a leadership position in the bank?
Richard Messick
Yeah, it was less now. By leadership in a large organization, particularly one
as complex as the World Bank, can mean different things. I did not get hundreds of millions of dollars to spend every year. My leadership came from providing guidance and intellectual leadership to the people in the bank. So maybe, I don't know, 50, 100 who worked on these rule of law projects and the 80 plus countries in the world where the World Bank provided assistance. And so one thing I would do is. I would go to Venezuela, where we had a couple of big World Bank, had large projects, help that person work through how to make his court reform projects better, based on my experience with court reform in the US.And then take what I learned from Venezuela. What I learned in Venezuela added
to what I knew about the U.S. and then go help people working in Mexico. Or in the PhilippinesInterviewer
So you kind of answered my second question, my next question, which was I mean,
you had so many opportunities to travel and experience so many different cultures. And so has that led you to new leadership styles or new methods of achieving your goals?Richard Messick
Well. I've learned more. I've learned to do things differently and I'm trying to
think of a. A good example or two will come to me as we're talking, I meanInterviewer
I mean, it sounds like you already have answered this question, is my point. I
mean, just in the dilemma between Peru and Zambia, styles of approach towards legislation or legislative bodies, you've had to change your approach and then you have information from other countries to help inform decisions on a new project.Richard Messick
Right. And the more and this kind of work, the more you do. It's like a craft.
Interviewer
Yeah. It's such a unique position. You know, there's no college degree for your position
Richard Messick
The more you do the better you get at it, and it's like any profession, a doctor
who's been 60 years old and seen lots and lots of patients. We'll just be better at diagnosing the problem than somebody who's 30, because the doctor has seen enough and seen how these things, certain set of, you know, pains suggest X rather than Y and just can read the situation better than somebody who's 30. Experience counts for a lot, and, you know, the only way you get experience as a doctor is being the doctor and the work, the building institutions, the rule of law is a pretty it's there are few people there's a few groups around the world to do it. But, you know, it's still a pretty esoteric business.Interviewer
Who would you say shape your leadership style? I mean, that's kind of the wrong
question. But as you go into these poor countries and looking to do reform, you know, who inspired you? I guess who do you think of for guidance as a hero of yours to these questions and these issues of this country? It's a tough question. I Worded it very poorly.Richard Messick
Oh. I looked for. There was a professor at Stanford. Who had written a lot. On
how the courts in Italy work and how they compared to American courts. And so that was sort of the first "AHH". So that's how you compare one thing against another and oh, because I knew a lot about American courts and I saw how he conceded, too, and then how he lined it up against what he didn't know or was trying to figure out about the courts in Italy. And that was sort of the approach I used,Interviewer
So, he taught more of a way of thinking. The Stanford professor rather than.
Richard Messick
Right, right. Because there just wasn't many. Well, now there is a guy who was
actually whose daughter was your babysitter once, and he's the guy that I went to Venezuela with. And I saw how he if you want to get stuff done in a poor country and you're from the World Bank, you know it can be difficult and I saw his method of operation. And he was often criticized for it, he would be very generous with the little perks that people in the country could get by being involved with the World Bank. He could arrange for them to do a trip to Mexico to study court reform in Mexico for a week or two. That is pretty nice thing to do. Pretty interesting. And people criticized him for that kind of work. Well, I went with him on this trips and I saw first of all there, they can be very valuable. People actually do learn stuff, it's not just sitting on the beach and second, when difficult times came and hard decisions had to be unpopular, decisions had to be made, because of the relationship he developed by taking these people, you know, treating them well. He got things done. And hard decisions made that others wouldn't have a lot of the same valuable a lot of times these projects don't do much.Interviewer
Yes, a lot of talk and not a lot of implementation.
Richard Messick
Right. Because implementation of these poor countries is really hard. They lack
the capacity to train staff and they don't even when they have trained staff and they have infrastructure, there's sometimes strong political opposition, corruption. Or, you know, and. While leads. Way of doing business, as I say, a lot of people, he did a lot of people that have a Ph.D. from great universities in America or other countries didn't think high. And he certainly wasn't intellectually on their level and they didn't think highly of, oh, he's just got to do what they want. But I saw they didn't get much done.He got a lot of accomplished.
Interviewer
when you really look at the pencil down and look at what happened. He was up first.
Richard Messick
Exactly. Oh, that was so funny. That was so funny because to some of the people
who had brought me in were some of his biggest critics. And then after a couple of years, they just I said, well, you know, say what you want. Go down there and look. Yeah, go to Venezuela, go to Guatemala, go here, go there.Interviewer
I guess this is a better question, I guess summary word, this question, the
original question was what to what or two or three actions that we believe are essential to enable others to be successful. But I guess I'll revert to instead of people a governing body or an institution, because that seems to be more of your expertise.Richard
Do a lot of homework before you go in to talk to them and have an idea of which
way you want them to go and what you want them to do, and I'll give you an example when I was first at the World Bank They want me to go to India to talk about how to reform the courts. And they had already organized a big meeting of about 100 judges from around India. To talk about what needs to be done now, they hadn't done any research that hadn't themselves. Well, we'll just listen to what? The judges say. OK, well, we got from 100 judges, probably 5000 different suggestions, and they ranged from. They ranged from. The bathroom in my courthouse doesn't work, fix it. We need a better system with the copies of all the laws on it to we need better birth control. Now how does better birth control deal with court reform? The logic is impeccable. The judge said, well, we have more cases than we can decide. We're all too busy, and if we had fewer people, we'd have fewer cases. You're right, that's it, I agree. But when you get 5000 suggestions, you really have none.Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, it's all over the place
Richard Messick
Drawing on some work, actually, I've been involved with only slightly in the
District of Columbia when we did when I got in charge of a project in the Philippines. We did some investigations and we came up with what? Careful students, people were close observers, court thought were some of the real problems, and we did a little even statistical work that verified that these are some of the real problems. Then we held a meeting with all the many of the senior judges and we presented our study. And said, here's what we found. What do you think? So we got to focus and coming out of that meeting. We got an agreement on you guys. Yeah, we need to do this. Yeah, we should change that. So you got to set a direction, otherwise, you know what's wrong?Interviewer
A point on the horizon and you know what's wrong? Towards.
Richard Messick
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A group meeting that was. I served as the facilitator
and I had a couple academics from Australia who'd done this study. And, you know, sometimes the study showed that the judges themselves were lazy, I mean, not the ones in the room, but, you know, a lot of times they just weren't working 9:00 to 5:00 and they were stuck, you know, and that's a hard thing to present to a full day's work. And, you know, there's time for some time and money. So instead of hiring a thousand new judges like you guys you want, you could just get the ones that are here doing more, doing his work well, more efficiently. Right. So we can come about that directly. But that was in effect to it, you know. Yeah, so, you know, and of course, some of the things that we presented that course sharpened it up and I wanted to do things they might well have disagreed with and and we decided not to go forward with, but we didn't walk in with just. Oh, tell me what you think is wrong.Interviewer
in those situations, when it was you and a team of people, you may not have been
the leader of the team of people, but was there much delegation in those situations when you do walk in with a group or is it just one guy leads the charge?Richard Messick
Well, now, that's interesting, that was the difference I saw between working for
a first rate guy who was chairman of the Committee on Foreign Relations, the US Senate and working at the World Bank. When I would go into a meeting with. Senator Lugar, my boss, and the committee. He had no problem even when he was very senior people, you know, secretary of state or whatever, and I'm sitting behind them usually or sometimes side. Senator, I said, Rick. You want to speak to that? Can you answer that question? Because he knew it generally, but I was the one who knew all the specifics of it. There might be 3 or 4 of us in the room on different topics we detailed on, but he knew that we knew more and he wasn't afraid or anything. At the World Bank the senior person would never do that. They would speak even when they got the thing 100% wrong. And it was never clear to me weather it was happened to be those individuals with egos or weather it was just that's the way business was done. Its not our tradition that the lower levels talk.Interviewer
That sounds a lot like consulting where the lower level guys do all the
groundwork and give all the important information to the guy that gives the presentation.Richard Mesick
Yeah but on many issue senator Lugar never spoke to me because sometime he knew
the issue better then I did. I filled in the gaps where he knew a lot more then I did. If he knew I could advance the thing he let me talk. And this is another thing and a really interesting thing I learned from him and Mitch Daniels, I would give them something that was good but not perfect. They could always make it better, right? But they haven't got time to make everything everyone gives them better, so most of the time what I gave them they used. If it was really important and big focus, they would work on it and improve it. And the nice thing as I said many times is they would improve it, I have worked for people that would change it and it would be worse but with a Lugar or Daniels they just don't have time for everything as its not just me giving them stuff, ya know and that's real critical.Interviewer
Interesting that you learned that as someone who worked for them as they set the
persistent behavior.Richard Messick
Well and then I ran a group of 10 researchers for Mitch Daniels, any one of the
ten I could do his or her job better then they did because I was older and had more experience. But I did not have time to do 10 of their jobs. I had to pick and choose what's good enough as it is? And that is part of prioritizations about leadership, picking your priorities. Joe Carney and a guy who had run a couple large companies and was secretary of defense and white house chief of staff I put together at a dinner once and sat next to them. And they both immediately agreed that the chief executive officer of a large organization should spend 1/3 of their time on personal.Interviewer
Yeah or else you get disconnected from all the people doing the hard work
Richard Messick
Well no picking who should come on and promoting because jeez you cant do
everything yourself. Joe Carney said that good people are so rare that if he found a good person, he would hire them and find something for them to do later. Now he was in an expanding company but.Interviewer
Yeah so you could always find something for them to do
Richard Messick
When the first President Bush lost his reelection in 1992 of course all the
people that were working there yea know presidential appointees had to find new jobs. And I steered people towards him that I thought were really good and there two that he hired and he said well they're really good, the hard thing is finding good people the easy thing is finding them jobs to do. That was really interesting.Interview
We are down to our last question. As a wise person in your field and one of the
most experienced what do you think your legacy will be in your field? Do you think people will do case studies or write a book? What do you want to leave to other people that are following in your field of work to give them a better shot at success?Richard Messick
Well you know I have written over 300 blog posts some of which are 2000-3000
words to try and distil how I think about talking various issues. It is called the Global Anti-Corruption Blog.Interviewer
I will put it in the description below
Richard Messick
Well you know what I have most recently written on? Can Trump be prosecuted.
Interviewer
Interesting that will be a good read
Richard Messick
Yeah it's a big issue. What kind of crimes can he be prosecuted for, all this
stuff. But you know its kind of just making sure people are aware that people don't get locking into thinking a certain way.