Interview of Christina Gonzalez Ho, October 13, 2021

Christina Gonzalez Ho, Transcript, October 13, 2021

Introduction/About Estuaries

Grace: Well, if you would like to just introduce yourself and talk about who you are, where you are, and the work that you are doing with Estuaries to kind of start us off and what that is all about and what that looks like currently. 

Christina: Okay, So I am Christina Gonzalez Ho, and I am the co-founder of Estuaries. I founded that back in 2018 with Christian my husband and some of our close friends-- and what was the other question? Where am I geographically?

Christina: I am in Redwood City, California right now in the bay area. Estuaries is a ministry that we founded to basically build communities that are equally spirit led and intellectually vibrant with a focus on emotional health. These communities are specifically for Christians whose work involves meaningfully engaging in culture. So that is across a really wide variety of fields. We have architects. We have lawyers, scientists, engineers, farmers, chefs, and of course artists and scholars, and so that is kind of who we are. 

Grace: Awesome. So, do you guys mostly pull from people around the bay area or is it more international or national scale?

Christina: Oh yeah, we get people from everywhere. 

Grace: Okay that is awesome.

Christina: I mean mostly the United States for now, but we are definitely-- we have had participants come from all over the world. When we started, we were living on the East coast, Christian was at Harvard doing his architecture masters, -audio cuts out here- 

-- school because at the time those were the people we were around, but we get people from all over the place. 

Grace: Okay very cool. When I was looking up, I was like this is such an interesting just kind of combination of things and a lot of interests of mine just related to mental health, culture, spirituality, faith and justice and just trying to build these communities for people to share. You had mentioned school. Is there-- so I know that there is kind of a program that Estuaries does-- 

Christina: Yeah, so we call them schools. We did one in 2018 and one in 2019. It was a 10-12 day, you could call it a seminar, an intensive, a school. We invited people to come out. We had some facilities in Kona Hawaii, the Big Island. We had teaching and discussions across a wide variety of topics, but it was all centered around times of worship, lots of discussion that turned into ministry times and vice versa, and just being together. That is what I mean when I say schools. 

Intersections of Identity, Culture, and Work

Grace: Okay awesome. Well, so I am curious, this first question is what part of your personal biography or background has led you to your current work? You can also speak to what different cultural identities and experiences have also led you to this kind of work.

Christina:  Yeah, that is an interesting question. I would say that-- you know there are so many different cultural identities and experiences, but I think that maybe the overarching one is this term that we started to use for our publication for Estuaries, which is called "Between Lands." I feel like that is probably one of the biggest markers of my experience throughout my life is being between, being between lands. I'm Chinese American, and I grew up kind of between those two different cultures and navigating and mediating between both. I have also been in churches that were more theologically conservative. I am talking about, not politically, but when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit and all those kinds of things. A more charismatic expression of Christianity versus a non-charismatic expression. Being in those worlds and then going from there to the college experience. I was at Stanford, which is definitely not a Christian institution and navigating between the culture of intellectual-- hyper-intellectualism-- and no belief in any sort of spiritual world. Then going from there to the International House of Prayer, which is very Christian and charismatic. Not a lot of people there who have gone into higher education or really value that. Then going from there to Harvard Law School, which is again the polar opposite. So, I feel like I have-- I would not say that I have always had one foot in both worlds. I would say that I have been in many different types of communities that seem to be opposing each other or seem to have nothing to do with one another. There are different values that I share with all of those different communities, and I do not feel like I fit in to any one of them. That is kind of even the premise of Estuaries: to create a place for those people who have been between lands, like me. 

Culture and Living in the "In-Between"

Grace: Yeah, okay that is, that is really fascinating that you say that because in, I'm in, so I am a religious studies minor with a Global Leadership major, but for my minor I'm taking a class right now that's called faith and justice and we just read a book called Jesus of the East by Phuc Luu. He is a Vietnamese American immigrant, and he uses the word "in-betweener." He talks about that experience, and he specifically is talking about faith, the gospel, and scripture from the perspective of people who are oppressed or marginalized or outcasted rather than how Western Christianity has taken the gospels and kind of made it to uplift certain structures that can promote oppression. So, it is really fascinating that you are talking about that and that that is kind of what is at the core of Estuaries. I would just be curious to hear about what it has been like for you to just kind of sit in that in-between. Is it uncomfortable and what does that look like for you? 

Christina: Yeah, I think it is definitely very frustrating and uncomfortable at times. Then other times it feels like an asset because it feels like I can take the good things that I have learned in all sorts of places and hopefully help people move toward a more holistic understanding because I don't think that any one group or culture or community is completely right about everything. But I think definitely the experience of it can be quite challenging. 

Grace: So, in terms of Estuaries and your own leadership within that organization, what has that meant for you and what does leadership within that organization look like for you. Then I know that you had been a worship leader at the International House of Prayer, and I actually knew someone-- I was worship leader for a long time and one summer knew someone who had studied there.

Christina: Oh, cool. 

Christina's Leadership Styles and Experiences

Grace: It was just an interesting connection to see that you had had that experience, but what has leadership kind of meant for you throughout your life and in relation as well if you want to talk about what it has been like to be in the in-between. 

Christina: Well first of all to clarify, I was not a worship leader at IHOP. I just like sang on the worship team a few times. There is like this whole structure and hierarchy of how to become an actual worship leader. I was only there for six months so I was not there for long enough, but what does it mean for me to be a leader? I do not know. I feel like I am still really figuring out how to be a leader. I just took this quiz. Well, it is like a more involved thing than that, but it is called dismotivators and it tells you your natural style and your adapted style. For my natural style, apparently dominance was up here, really high. I am a dominant person. My adapted style came down much lower, so just showing that I do try to hold myself back in settings with other people sometimes. I just think that is interesting. I do not necessarily know whether I think that is good or bad. I just think that it is a thing-- if you ask my husband he will be like "Oh you are definitely super dominant," you know like "I feel oppressed by you." I know I can tend to-- I am a very decisive person. Not when it comes to my own life necessarily, but when it comes to something I am leading I am like "okay let us-- we have this goal and now we know how we are going to do it" and I like to do things not quickly, but just kind of like "okay let us get on with things." I do not necessarily think that that is always the best approach. You know I think it is probably kind of good that I do hold myself back in certain ways because I do not want to steamroll over people. 

Grace: Right.

Christina: Of course, it is not good to hold yourself back if you feel like you are qualified or if you feel like you are silencing yourself or whatever, but I feel like I am very much still trying to figure that out. Does that answer the question? 

Grace: Yeah. Yeah, I think for sure. Talking about that, I have been thinking and reflecting a lot lately on especially how women are socialized within our society. It is interesting that you mention your natural is this dominant, but adapted scaling it back, and I have been thinking about that with myself and just how women especially can, and people of color, and people who are marginalized can be socialized in a way that is like "You should hold back, and you should be, not, I mean subservient for some, but I feel like that is also maybe more an extreme word in other cases. I was wondering if you would speak to what it has been like to be a leader, to also be a woman, to also be Chinese American, and if you have faced any resistance or pushback because of those things? 

Christina: Yeah, that is a good question. I think that-- I do not think that I faced any push back because I am doing this with my friends. It is not like I am doing this with a bunch of strangers, and so there is a lot of trust there, which is great. I think that the first year that we ran Estuaries it was my first time being in such a "leadership-py" position in ministry because I have done worship leading a lot, and I have spoken at churches one or twice, but I have never headed up a full twelve-day thing where I am constantly running everything and telling people what to do and deciding what is next. So, I did find myself questioning myself a lot and being quite anxious. But I think it is just a very multifaceted type of thing, right? Because I think one way to interpret it is to be like I am questioning myself as a female leader because I have heard all this stuff about how women should not lead, and I think that there is part of that in there for sure. Maybe even the organization that we were, not partnering with, but we were on their property using their facilities. I think if there is a type of culture there it can definitely seep into even the spiritual atmosphere. It can cause you to think and feel certain things. I think that was probably a factor, but I think also another factor is I was stepping into a large leadership role for the first time and there is just going to be all kinds of insecurities that come up with that. Definitely like one, I do not know if I would call it an insecurity but know that I tend to check myself because I know I can tend to be really controlling sometimes, which I think is different than taking decisive initiative. I think controlling comes out of anxiety. Then you try to micromanage everything because you are anxious, and I do not think that that is strong leadership at all. I think I was also wrestling with that. It is because I am stressed and a little bit insecure at doing this for the first time then my tendency is to overcontrol things when actually sometimes the best thing to do is step back and let other-- see what other people do or what the Holy Spirit does and then you are like "Oh I didn't even have to do that." I think that there is just a lot in there. I do think that the way that women are socialized is a part of it, but at the same time I have had a lot of examples of strong female leadership in my life. I have just happened to attend a lot of churches with a female being a lead pastor. That is the way things worked out. I do not think that--I think maybe more because of my Chinese American side I did-- I think maybe that is the part that would make me appear more pleasant and not subservient, but something less strong than that. Just not saying anything that could be offensive or that could be I do not know, that could make people uncomfortable, especially white people, older white people. But I feel like I do not really care about that anymore. I am just like "I say what I think," and if people are offended, everybody gets offended these days about whatever. 

Grace: Cannot please everyone.

Christina: Definitely cannot. That was a very ramble-y answer.

Grace: No, that was great.

Christina: Hopefully there is something good in there. 

Grace: I grapple big time with people-pleaser tendencies, and I think part of that is growing up in the church environment and religious sphere. Also, I think a concern and wanting to care for others and appeal, but that is definitely something that I am working on, so it is great to hear

Christina: I would say I think that what we need to strive for is just emotional health rather than-- I am all for bringing down the patriarchy when necessary, but I do think-- I have sat in-- When I used to work at the law firm there was this women's event reading the book Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. I do not know if you have heard of that book.

Grace: I have not.

Christina: She was like the CEO of Facebook, and it is all about women tend to not speak up as much in class. They tend to not-- they tend to be more people-pleaser, and we need to lean in! We need to take our seat at the table, and I think something that rubs me the wrong way about that is that then I feel like we are always-- then men are the standard of how we should strive and how we should act. It is like "well men speak up a lot more, so we should speak up more," and I do not always think that the right answer is to speak up more. Sometimes I think that people need to speak up less and listen more. So as a woman or as a Chinese American person I do not want to see my "female"-ness as a deficit. I want to see it as an asset. It is good that I care about people. It is good that I walk into a room and read a room and kind of know how people are feeling. It is bad if I then try to people-please everyone, and then I become codependent. Those are emotional health issues, and I think that I would like to see women and men really move towards: what does it mean to be an emotionally healthy person and an emotionally healthy leader? What does that look like? I do not want to become a more masculine or aggressive leader. I just want to be the healthiest version of who I am, and I think that that is good.  

Shifting Perceptions/Norms of Leadership

Grace: Yeah, I have been thinking about that too with I think certain characteristics and qualities being undervalued. I know at my school, at Belmont, especially in the school of theology, we talk a lot about listening and hearing other people's perspectives. We talk a lot about liberation theology and Christian feminist theology and trying to listen to a multitude of perspectives. So, do you think with leadership that there needs to be a transformation of how leadership is viewed and perceived and what kinds of qualities should be valued in leadership? 

Christina: Sorry you cut out a little bit right when you-- Were you asking a question?

Grace: Yeah.

Christina: I only heard the last half of that-- something about qualities of leadership. 

Grace: Yes. Do you think that-- from your perspective do you see this need for there to be a transformation in how leadership is viewed and that certain qualities be uplifted, valued, and this transformation of what leadership looks like and what qualities deem what a "good" leader is? 

Christina: Yeah, I mean I think that that can only help us. Like if you-- because we live in a pluralistic society and a global world, we are always coming into contact with different cultures and different ways of doing things. That comes with a lot of challenges, but it can also make us so much more holistic and more human. I think that as we learn to value other ways of doing things-- and I think it is even less learning to value X, Y, or Z and more learning to be humble and be quick to listen and slow to speak. Being a learner because you cannot automatically start valuing everything good. There is a learning curve, and that is fine. It is fine if at first it is uncomfortable, and it is hard. But I think that if we can embrace the position of being a learner that will only help all of us. 

How cultural and ideological differences impact the collaborative work of Estuaries

Grace: Well, you mentioned culture, and I would just be curious to hear you talk more about what culture has looked like in your leadership experience and with Estuaries. And have there been any challenges that you have faced, especially in-- I do not know if you have gotten to have or foster a lot of intercultural dialogue or experiences or interactions, but if any of that has been kind of challenging to navigate?

Christina: Yeah definitely. Estuaries is a multicultural organization. I think that that is one of its big strengths. So, on our core team we have a couple that has been in full time ministry for over probably fifteen years. That has been their thing and the world that they have been ensconced in. Then we have people who are really deep in academia, and we have people from a variety of racial and ethnic backgrounds and political leanings. And I just mean by that one of our core leaders like "Christians should not vote at all. The government is an instrument of violence, and we should not participate in that," and then other members who are like, "Well I believe that voting is incredibly important." One of our core team members is black, and he has always been taught that the right to vote is this sacred right and you have to use it, right? So, there is a spectrum of different cultures for sure and I think that there have definitely been moments of tension where it is-- I even remember one of our core team members brought up women are always being interrupted in our meetings and even though I am a woman, that is just not something that I saw. But that is something that she is very sensitive to because that is the realm she works in. So, in times like that where one person is saying one thing and another person does not see it that way, how do you navigate that without minimizing the way that the other person is feeling and trying to force them to prove it? But at the same time, you do not want to become-- I do not want us to become an organization where anytime someone has any criticism or complaint, we just accept it without discussing it more in-depth and allowing everybody to understand where that person is coming from whether they agree or not. Because then you fall into just trying to people-please for the sake of keeping your hands clean and being like "we have never marginalized anyone, not us. We say yes to everyone." You cannot say yes to everyone and still have a healthy team. Those types of situations can be really tricky, and I think that the only thing that I found as a way for being able to move through those situations in a better way is to continue to develop deeper relationships with our team. Develop deeper relationships in areas where we are not debating something or there is not controversy about something. Really showing each other that we love one another, care for one another in our making every effort to know each other and create an environment where everyone can be themselves. Then when those things come up, it still may be fraught, but it will not be something that could make or break a team. 

Examining the role of Social Change, Justice, and Faith

Grace: I think kind of bridging off of that. I had come across you in watching the Ted Talk that you did at Harvard. I had watched it earlier this summer and had seen it and had just been floored. It was really wonderful to see someone who was coming from a spiritual lens and wanting to study law and looking into social change. On your Ted Talk you kind of talk about love, this idea of love and divine justice is equipped for messiness. People who are coming from different backgrounds and experiences and colliding with each other and working with each other there is bound to be some messiness there. You also talk about how it is immune to quick fixes. You note how it [love] calls us to wade into that messiness and sink into and lean into those tensions, frictions. Bryan Stevenson of the Equal Justice Initiative has talked about this importance of proximity to suffering and to tension and conflict and that that is the real root and core work of life. So, I was curious what it looks like or means for you to step into that and to be in solidarity with those who are facing injustice and the messiness of that. What does that mean for you and if there is work there that is happening in Estuaries? 

Christina: I think what it means for me now is because we are living in a time where the easiest way to be proximate to people who are suffering or people who are being oppressed is to read about it online or post about it, which it is not, not proximity, but it is also not proximity. I think in some ways I feel torn about it because in some ways it is helpful because you find out about what others are going through. It does serve as a constant reminder that life is not just what your day to day may be like, but at the same time it does lead to people feeling really overwhelmed by the suffering of the world and then kind of shutting down in their hearts. I think that is really tough. I think for me it is really important to be physically present with people who are suffering. I think that there is a wide range. Unfortunately, there is a wide range of suffering in the world. 

So, after I gave that ted talk, I graduated from law school and then I went to work in DC. I was working in a big law firm at the time. I also had found these roommates on a church forum and they had been living in southeast DC, and if you are not familiar with the area it is just known to be rougher. It is low income, higher crime, and it is also 99% black. It is very racially segregated. It is just right across the bridge from Capitol hill. I was working right across from the capitol in this big law firm. I was living in a low income and neighborhood where there was just a lot of tough things happening. My roommates who were amazing role models of mine, they had been involved in a few different ministries, in that neighborhood had made a lot of relationships and they were doing Young Life there. So, I joined them. I joined Young Life. I had never done Young Life before and I am like-- teenagers are not my comfortable group of people to be around. I am so intimidated by teenagers. I am like "please do not talk to me or look at me. Do not be mean to me." I grew up in a predominantly white and Asian community, so I had not been around a black community a ton, even though I had a lot of friends. I had black friends from college, but I had not been the minority in a predominantly black community, so that was also a very new experience for me. 

It was just interesting because I saw a lot of suffering in both worlds that I was in. This is like another one of those ``Between Lands" moments, right?  I am at the law firm. There are all these rich people. Their careers are going well, but they are having to take sleeping pills to go to sleep at night because they are so stressed. Then in my neighborhood I am seeing all these young kids who have already been to so many funerals of people their own age and who have been through all kinds of trauma. There was a really-- it was really, really hard. I think all of those things I said in that Ted Talk were tested. It was like I then moved from the lab into the real world. The type of suffering that I saw-- the type of-- I do not even know if suffering is the right word for it, but the conditions that people lived in that just did not get better through the years. Every week we would do our little thing to try to just love people and bring a little bit of fun and happiness. I have kept in touch with some of those teenagers who are not teenagers anymore. Life has not gotten that much better. I mean it has not. There is one girl in particular I still text back and forth with a lot and support her monthly. 

I do not really have any answers for-- I still believe everything I said in that talk, but at the same time I know why people do not talk about love in public policy because it is incredibly hard. It does not feel like you make a ton of progress. It is a lot easier to just come up with a system that is going to make things a little bit better for people, but at the end of the day you cannot get into the human messiness of it too much because then you will just maybe feel like you are drowning in that. I still do think people should talk about it in law schools because these are some of the most brilliant minds, and this is really important to just think about. There is just no getting around it. It is really hard, and it is really sad. I think that you live with that and keep praying and trying to show up and show love in whatever ways you can. 

Now, the work that I am much more focused on is the work of Estuaries where we are trying to equip people that we believe will be able to affect a more large-scale change in society and culture. We just want to invest in them so they can do what they do in all their different fields. We want to help them thrive in the way we best can because we are not going to be able to touch all of the lives that they will through their work. But they can do that, and we can touch their lives. That is where I am more focused on right now. 

I think that I could do well to turn off my social media more and not read the news as much, but actually go volunteer more and physically put my body in a place that is near people who are going through different types of struggles than I am rather than just reading about it and educating myself about it, but not truly being in a position where I am doing anything about it. 

Hopefully that does not sound too bleak. I do not feel bleak. I actually feel very hopeful about the world. Oppression is real. Darkness is real but we also see God show up in incredible ways, and you do not see that if you do not allow yourself to be exposed to those situations where it feels like there is no hope. You do not see a miracle-- miracles only happen when circumstances are so dire that there is no other way. That is why it is a miracle. We did see a lot of beautiful ways that God did show up, so I am really grateful for that as well. 

Grace: To speak more into that I think as well, the idea of miracles and God working. I think it happens in much more subtle ways than we may expect. These smaller moments of hope that can lead to bigger impacts. Has that experience and since graduating from law school and having the experience that you did in DC and where you are now, has that changed how you view social change and the impact that you can have on the people that you interact with and the people in Estuaries? 

Christina: Has it changed how I view social change? Yes and no. I think that I still see it the same way. I think that at the end of the day love is the most powerful and persistent force that is really-- The love of God is the only thing that is really capable of transforming a person or a society to the extent that I believe it should be transformed. Because there are many ways of transforming society, and they do not have to be through Christian means or through Godly means at all. There are ways of making people's lives better that definitely do not have to be overtly Christian. Although, I would argue that those values do come from Jesus. I guess maybe the way that it has shifted is I think all of those things I said in that talk. I think I would just maybe have more of a soberness as I would say those things. I would realize this is really hard. 

A book that I have read that has really impacted how we think for Estuaries has been To Change the World by James Hunter. He is a sociologist at UVA, and he has his own institute on culture, on studying culture. He is a believer. It is a really interesting book just talking about how Christians are always saying "we want to change the world. We are going to change the world," but their approach has always been through changing the hearts and minds of individuals. He goes through history and pinpoints times when culture has radically shifted, and it has not been through changing hearts and minds. It is a really interesting book, and basically one of the propositions that he offers is that culture changes when elites on the peripheries of power form networks with one another.

Grace: That is interesting. 

Christina: It is super interesting. I am sure you have way too much to read right now, but someday. 

I actually think that obviously while I was in law school, I was very focused on law and policy as a means of changing society, and I do think that that is one piece, but now I think my view has widened to see the ways culture only really changes if you have that in concert with artists, scholars, philosophers. People who are pushing forward ideas about the world and humanity and the way we relate to one another. I think that people focus on law and policy a lot and politics a lot, but that is only one very small piece of the puzzle. 

Grace: So does the book talk about change really happening through these various networks of people or does he also talk about change happening through institutions? 

Christina: A lot of times those people are at institutions. There is a lot of overlap with that. He does talk about, of course, grassroots movements do make an impact on society, but again if you trace those movements back to the source they came from people, like the writers and the different--  

Grace: Like thought leaders--

Christina: Yeah, thought leaders. Sure, that is a good way of putting it, who were pushing these ideas decades before the on-the-ground movement happened. Because do you remember "occupy wall street?" 

Grace: Vaguely, yes. 

Christina:  Vaguely, it was a while ago, but vaguely also because what did it accomplish? A lot of people occupied wall street and sat down there. It was all in the news, but it did not lead to any cultural shift. I think it was an expression of how people were feeling, but it was not something that pushed the needle even though there was all this popular support. So, I think that is the difference, right? There was not really a philosophical leader or framework to that movement that was clear. So, it kind of fizzled out and we were just like, "oh what was that?" People were mad about wall street. So, I think that people who are actively working to create a framework that people can unify behind. You do not get those movements that bring about lasting change. 

It is not even to say that any type of lasting change is a good change. It is complicated because sometimes a change starts out that has good effects but then has a lot of unforeseen effects. So, the goal of Estuaries is not that we want to reverse engineer social change. That is not the goal, but what we do want to do is invest in people that we think really, really contribute in amazing ways to culture. People who are in those spheres that James Hunter talks about and when the opportunities arise as God leads then those people will be ready to contribute their thing. People always talk about "we want to change the world like Daniel and Joseph and Esther." All three of those people did not try to find a way to get into those positions of power. They were brought there against their will, all three of them. Well, I guess Joseph wanted to go to Pharaoh, but he was in prison at the time so of course he did. They ended up in those positions because God brought them there, and once they were in those positions, they realized they had been training their whole lives for this. They just did not know it. So, I think that is more of our philosophy and our approach. We want to train people now to start thinking about re-imagining systems, re-imagining culture in the way of Jesus and doing that work. If and when the time comes for the work to be received on a greater level, then they will be ready and that will be great. We are not trying to take that. We are waiting for God to give those opportunities, and then we want to be faithful to that. 

Cultural Shifts, Resiliency and Christina's vision of the Legacy for Estuaries

Grace: Yeah, we have been talking about in some of my other classes about how in scripture, God uses very ordinary and often very flawed and very human people. They are just kind of dumped into these leadership positions, and they are like "what? What am I doing here? This was not-- Why me? Who am I to do this?" I think that is amazing that you guys are with Estuaries trying to cover all these different kinds of people and different kinds of fields. 

I just have two more questions, and I want to honor your time. I was curious talking about cultural shifts. I feel like the experience with the pandemic has unveiled a lot, and I personally feel there is a growing shift that is happening. So, I was curious to hear about if you are seeing a kind of cultural shift right now? And then last question what you want your legacy to be with Estuaries and in your life in general?

Christina: Yes, I definitely see a shift happening. I think it is too soon to tell exactly what the end results of the shift will be or even what direction we are shifting in. So maybe it is not so much a shift as it is destabilizing. I think a lot of things are shifting and moving, and we do not really know where they are moving to. I think during the pandemic so many different things happened. You had politics, political stuff going crazy. You had this racial reckoning happening. You have a lot of people suffering, losing jobs, getting sick, dying, and a lot of loneliness and isolation. All of that mixed together got people to start questioning a lot of things that seemed very fundamental and very stable in their own lives and their own belief systems, but I think that it also-- everything happened very fast. So usually when you go through something and it causes you to question, it is probably healthier to engage in that questioning process with more time to really go into it and figure out: Okay what do I think? What do I want to believe? What do I want to do next? But I think because so much of our lives were also being lived online, things moved so fast online. So, when George Floyd was killed everybody, not everybody, but a lot of people felt this very visceral-- and were very affected by it. And then it was like overnight every church in America started talking about race for better and for worse. But then it was like quick, quick, quick, quick. We need to come up with our response. So, some people were like "we do not need to talk about race and critical race theory is of the devil." And other people were like "no we need to talk about race right now and here is exactly how we are going to do it, and we are going to embrace everything about critical race theory." It just felt like you did not have time to figure it out. You needed to make a decision about where you stood pronto. "Are you a real Christian or are you a Marxist? Are you racist or are you antiracist?" You have to decide, and you have to buy these books right now. Or you have to do these things. Or you have to put out this statement. I think that I am like "Hmm, interesting" What is going to happen from that? I think people really feel destabilized right now, and I think that there is a need for-- and this goes into what I want my legacy to be, I guess through estuaries. I think there is a deep need for there to be an articulation of the Gospel for people living through this time of instability and the generation that is growing up in this time that is going to be the next generation to build and carry things forward. We need to be able to articulate what the gospel is for this social condition that we find ourselves in. The Gospel does not change. It is very simple, but it I think does necessitate a retranslation in every different age because people are-- language changes and so that is what I hope we do at Estuaries on a broad scale. I hope that we can translate the gospel to this generation and the generations that are coming up in a way that is going to help create resilient disciples of Jesus. There is a need for resilience because there is so much that is being shaken. We need to be resilient people. If we are people that are easily shaken and thrown off course, then we are not really going to be able to maintain our faith in the midst of all this. Yeah, what does it look like to be resilient in this time? And I think that there is so much we can draw from Daniel. He was taken as a captive to Babylon in exile. He was living in a place where the values were completely different than the ones he held, and he had to find a way of maintaining his identity and maintaining his faithfulness. You just see him do that in different ways throughout his life. He is definitely somebody that I would think of as resilient. He really went through it. He was with the lions. So yeah, I think that is what we hope to do during this time, and we are not the only ones doing it. There are a lot of different organizations that have that goal and I see them as our partners. Even if they do not know who we are, I see them as our partners. You guys are doing really important work and I am so glad that you exist because we cannot do all of that. I think that places like the Jude 3 Project, the AND campaign, and the Bible Project, and Bridgetown church and all kinds of other groups and people and writers. Willie James Jennings, Soong-Chan Rah, Mark Charles. All people who are doing really important work right now. It is a great time to be a part of the church right now. I think there are a lot of exciting things happening.

Grace: It is very interesting, and yes resiliency. I think that is so key, especially in faith and being able to still be resilient in all the questioning and doubt and instability.