Interview of Debby Gould, October 15, 2021

Gropp: So, this is an interview for Intro to Global Leadership. Basically, Profiles in Leadership and people within our community and really shows great leadership. So, could you give me a biography of some personal background [about you]?

Gould: Alright. My name is Debby Gould and I am currently the president of the League of Women Voters of Tennessee. My background is that I have a masters in Sociology [inaudible] and masters in Public Administration. And I spend my working career in civic engagement and advocacy work -- particularly around public education. [I] ran an education foundation for many years. And then did some research work at Peabody. Currently, as I said, I am president for the state league [inaudible] I was president for the Nashville league. And, the League of Women Voters is a nonpartisan organization that believes in the value of informed and engaged public life.

Gropp: Okay. That is excellent and I think we should all be very involved with public life and public policy because we should always educate, especially women, on things of this nature. So, have any cultural identities or experiences been most salient to you? What has shaped your way into becoming a leader? Like maybe sometime in your personal life like, "Yes, I definitely want to do this."

Gould: I would say that, one of the things that shaped my goals in terms of leadership is to realize how easy it is for people who feel powerless to not realize the power of their voice. And, their voice in a number of ways, both obviously just speaking and doing community activities, but also voting. But, I think very often that people minimize what they can do and do not realize the collective power [they have].

Gropp: Yes. And have you had any experiences that may be shaped as you as [a leader]? Say maybe, you saw- Like maybe a particular movement? Like civil rights? Or women in politics?

Gould: I think that I have done this long enough that I can say there are multiple epiphanies. And certainly, the civil rights movement. I mean, it would be amazing to say that it was not pivotal and seeing what that strength could be. And it is not- why we do not have the right to wait for somebody else to step up. Why we need to step up. So that is certainly was one of them. But I think over time it was also realizing, it was not just an African American issue. And that there were multiple groups who have been- I would not say not just disenfranchised but not listen to.

Gropp: So very pushed aside?

Gould: Yeah, yeah. Very pushed aside. So certainly we see that in the Latino community. We have seen it in immigrant communities. We have seen it with people with disabilities. We have seen it- and frankly I think it was shocking to me in 2016 to realize I had made a variety of assumptions about as to what women's role in leadership was. And women's voices that had currently underestimated the ability of women's voices to be included in meaningful conversations. I think for example- I mean can even think of photo images that were just riveting and such as, you may recall back in 2016 there was a photo of men sitting around a table, conference table, it was all white men. And they were talking about women's choice. And it was like, this is so absurd that its hard not to see it as satire. And I think the fact that we have both an increased awareness of those issues with an increased number of images we have had, both in writing, in oral, and visual. That directly conflict that I think it is that disconnect, that cognitive dissonance, that what we know to be true is not actually true. And I think that is actually a real motivator, and it should be a motivator for everyone to say I cannot accept this kind of dissonance, this being apart.

Gropp: Yeah, exactly. Have you faced any obstacles or challenges [while] being a leader and you know, getting to a place where you are now like what kind of obstacles have you faced?

Gould: Well, I think there are always obstacles for any individual, certainly for me. That at various times I wondered if I was the right to speak. But I think also there have been times that I have thought, "I am the wrong messenger for a particular message, and I am not sure who can be the messenger because it is an important message but I should not be the one delivering it." And I think that is a real obstacle for a lot of people as to women who have a right, I mean in terms of both culture appropriation but also just in terms of whether someone is going to listen to you.

Gropp: Yeah, I [can] relate to that problem because oftentimes I feel like i can't be the leader because maybe qualified. And I feel like a lot of people feel experience that. And I am glad that you are [vocalizing] that it is okay to feel that way. And that you can still be a leader even if you do not feel qualified.

Gould: Yeah, I think someone- one of the other things one involves into over time is that there are other people speaking who actually are less qualified than you. And there are times that I realize, "I have more knowledge than anyone else in the room." Now, knowledge. Not opinions. Knowledge that needs to be shared. Leadership is a growing skill. It is not something you wear once and you give up.

Gropp: Definitely. So what kind of work have you done within the League of Women's Voters?

Gould: Currently we are in the middle of handling redistricting hearings around the state to get public input. So right now, that is actually my issue for the month is to get that there. We also spend a lot of time, in terms of state advocacy work around legislative issues, both building grass roots knowledge about issues so they can reach out to legislators, testify in front of the state legislature. So that is certainly a lot of work. And there is a lot of things we do just around, I mean obviously voter registration, but also frankly just helping people get the knowledge they need so they can feel confident that they are actually making decisions that matter.

Gropp: What kind of personal work have you done? Like have you had any personal achievements that have been [a contribution] to your leadership?

Gould: I'm sorry, I do not really understand that question.

Gropp: Like have you had any personal achievements from your leadership, like say have you completed any public work or awards and things of that nature?

Gould: Oh! I see. Well let's see I was a nominee for the Female award locally. I have served on a huge number, frankly, innumerable number of committees. I certainly have commendations for that work cause I [have been on] the Chamber of Commerce committee for a while about evaluating schools receiving that. I was on the Public Axis Tevelvison Board. I have been into that. So yea, I have had things, but frankly, the personal awards are way less important knowing that you actually brought different types of organizations, and certainly right now the League of Women Voters has been [inaudible]. But other orgaznizations that I have had leadership roles in the past, but knowing that they have a higher because of what I have done has been really [inaudible].

Gropp: Yeah, what are your professional strengths and weaknesses that you have identified throughout your career?

Gould: I am a very good connector. I know how to bring diverse groups together. I am a very straightforward communicator. I do not avoid conflict, in the sense that I am willing to negoiate as a pragmatist to get things done. So I am very results oriented- results based. I like dealing with data, and that is a real strength. So I believe, to be quite honest, in order to believe to win any sort of public issue, you need both the emotional content as to why it motivates you, but you actually need hard data to back it up.

Gropp: Now what would you say some qualities of a leader should have? While there is many [like] you should be hard-working and motivated, what are the core qualities one should have?

Gould: I think you actually need to like people, and I do not mean that as a throwaway. I mean I think you actually have to understand people's motives and emphasize with them, and not discount the background that people bring to every discussion because everyone has base in every decision they make. Something in their background that leads them in a certain direction and motivates them. And I think that is often underestimated.

Gropp: How would you characterize your leadership style? You know, there are many leadership styles like being charismatic [and] being a servant to the people. What would you say that your leadership style is?

Gould: I would say I am a collaborative leader and that really like making sure I have heard everybody.

Gropp: Yeah. You want to make sure you have all opinions before you make a final decision.

Gould: Right.

Gropp: What does leadership mean to you?

Gould: I think that leadership means creating a path forward.

Gropp: Creating a path forward? Like you know just like, not only creating a path forward, but maybe leading those who maybe do not have a voice. Which is exactly what your work is.

Gould: Exactly.

Gropp: How do you measure success and how do you learn from your failure?

Gould: Oh, there is no such thing as failure. It is just things that did not work one time.

Gropp: You do not believe in failure?

Gould: You believe that you have done [inaudible]. Success- I think success comes that is actually apart of a good leadership style is finding success in manageable ways. Sometimes we end up into too global an image, you forget goals and missions, visioning missions. And that they are not necessarily the goal and the vision- you know. You can have a vision of eliminating world hunger, but you do not want to hold yourself up to having that before you say you are successful. You know, you got to have measurable goals and that is how you choose success is chipping away at things in a pragmatic style where you can actually build on what you have done. And accepting the failures and saying "Okay, I need Plan B, C, or D."

Gropp: Yeah, basically learning from your mistakes. And you know not necessarily like everything's like a failure but just learning from them and cherishing them. Do not like put yourself down. Cherish them and move forward with it. What advice do you have for building relationships and trust within an organization? Because while you do have many differing opinions and everyone has different backgrounds, it may be very hard to build cooperating relationships.

Gould: I think that with my experience is that you have to share as much information as you can. You have to share processes as much as you can. But you also have to make clear to clear the guidelines that when a group decision is made, that it has value as a, as if not a census at least a joint position that you can move forward. And you just ask people to be part of that moving forward. But you cannot, once a decision is made, you have to act on it. You cannot wait to get one hundred [percent]. I mean I don't know anything about background, but I can tell you right now my family of four never reached consensus about what we would eat for supper.

Gropp: I understand that. I have a family of five. So [there] is always very differing opinions. "Well yeah, well I want this!" I completely understand.

Gould: So I think sometimes we hold ourselves up to weird standards like to say you have to have a one hundred percent buy-in. You will never have a one hundred percent buy-in. You might have a high percentage of buy-in and then you have people who say, "I can live with this decision." And that is really what your biggest goal is to have everybody say, "I can live with this decision for now. Maybe not in the future, but for now."

Gropp: Yeah, I definitely agree. Who or what has been your greatest influence? Like maybe a particular person or a movement?

Gould: That's an interesting question. Who has been my greatest influence? Oh goodness, I am struggling on that only because-- I [would have to] say Chief Justice Ginsberg. I have to say she actually is an enormous influence, not just because of what she accomplished, but her understanding of how you know, She started out with her first cases around women's issues with the most mundane- I believe the first women's was like a young woman who wanted to play on a boys soccer team or something. I think that was it. But it was very mundane, but she understood you build your successes on a groundwork. And that is how you build, I mean that is how she created the whole women's rights issues. And to me, that methodical nature, that ability to accept temporary defeats in order for a long-term gain its just enormously powerful.

Gropp: Yeah, I agree. She is definitely an icon to the women's movement and she has paved the way. What do you want your legacy to be? What do you want to leave behind and maybe inspire incoming women and other activists to move forward with women's rights and women's voting.

Gould: Well first of all I would have to say while I certainly focus a lot on women's rights, it would be foolish of me to say that I only care about women. And sometimes, I think that we look to define our groups rather narrowly, that is the truth. I mean I could really care about men's rights too. I do not want them to be disenfranchised in order for someone else to have a voice. So, I guess what I hope is my legacy is that I create enough traditions of how to move forward and problem-solving that people can model on it. And I certainly hope that is a part of the legacy. And I also hope that part of my legacy is helping people understand that sometimes to move forward, you discard things that did not work in the past, and sometimes that is really hard that people onto things even when their time on earth is done. It's time to let them go.

Gropp:Yeah, definitely. What are some action steps you believe are essential to become successful or enabling others?

Gould: I think you have to give people the tools on how to express themselves well. And to have both the tools and the opportunity. And that you should never [inaudible] and short change that step in going through a process. That is probably the most important and that you need to be able to model it, and frankly one of the things that certainly the League of Women Voters does is to model civility in public discourse and I think that is really important and I think also the ability to not only to express yourself but actually also to listen. And to listen with empathy and understanding.

Gropp: I agree. What are some-- you know there are people out there that think, "Oh I want to be a leader but I am not qualified. I am not strong. I am not self confident." What [is some] advice you would give to those people?

Gould: I think the first step is to start at the beginning. And that you should never assume that a leader is born overnight. That is a really rarity. You should assume that you need to embed yourself in an organization or belief or cause that you are concerned about. And once you are in that position, you will find the strength to find the issues that matter to you and the ability to articulate that.

Gropp: Yeah, well I think that is all of our questions. I mean we have one more if you want to answer it. I mean I just came across it, but do you think it is important to delegate and if so, why? When and how do you delegate?

Gould: I think you delgate in a number of ways. First of all, you delegate to take advantage of people's strengths and we all know we have different strengths. And I think distributive leadership has enormous value and you should never underestimate what everybody can bring to the discussion and what tools they have, what natural abilities they have. And that is just really important. I think you help build those skills and you also do not ask people to take on tasks or leadership roles they are unqualified for because no one wanst to experience a necessary failure.

Gropp: Yeah, I understand that. Well that is all the questions I have!