Interview of William Zuccarini, November 4, 2021

William Zuccarini Interview Transcript

Interviewer: Ethan Phillips

Interviewee: William Zuccarini

Interviewer:

That is ominous, I like it. Alright, lets do this.

Zuccarini:

Alright, we are recording.

Interviewer:

Alright, so, this will be my interview with, I am Ethan Phillips by the way, and this is my guitar professor from high school William Zuccarini and this will be for our Global Leadership class. Alright, so, this interview is just going to consist of questions regarding your status +IBM- I consider you a leader as a teacher, I feel like teachers are kind of an under looked kind of leader, because we have been looking at political leaders mostly, but I feel like teachers are kind of, obviously the backbone of a place, country because they raise and educate and put those people into the workforce.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, I agree with that.

Interviewer:

So, I thought it would be interesting to ask you some questions about how you view yourself as a leader, if you+ICY- actually, actually that would be a good first question, it is more of a yes or no question but I have other ones. So, do you consider teachers as leaders? Like what do you think about that statement.

Zuccarini:

I do. I specifically think that as we especially work with older adolescent students like middle school and high school, I think we+IBk-re definitely leaders in the sense that out goal as teachers, no matter what discipline we teach, I think the goal is always to prepare students for life after high school.

Interviewer:

Right.

Zuccarini:

And if we are using the term leader I would say lead them into becoming better members for our society. And if you talk about the technical aspects of being a teacher, like classroom management, I mean that is leadership 101, how you+ICY-you know, maintain a classroom space, whether it be maintaining it as a safe area or a disciplined area, etc., however you teach. So yeah, those are all forms of leadership.

Interviewer:

Right, and to continue on that topic you brought up. Is how+ICY-how do you - because I feel like, as being a former student of yours, that you had a very, you balanced this very well with maintaining like an authoritative, yet also a very, like as you put it like a safe space. You were very approachable. How did you maintain that authoritative and approachable aspect as a teacher?

Zuccarini:

Are you asking me how do I maintain that?

Interviewer:

Well, uh, yes, well

Zuccarini:

I mean, personally, my style of teaching had always been to be very matter of fact. You know this, and many other students of mine have always kind of figured this out, is that I don+IBk-t often sugarcoat things. I am going to be very honest with people, and part of that, you know, and unfortunately, I take it for granted, but it+IBk-s part of the reason I enjoy teaching high school is because I feel, for the most part, not always, but students at an older age can kind of handle straightforward responses+ICY-

Interviewer:

Right, because obviously thats not going to work on younger students, sorry to interrupt.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, because I feel you have to lead with a softer hand with that, but there is always a time where you need to kind of treat the classroom as this is a place for learning, and if there is an instance where you are having, like for instance, say something is going on in your life and it is interrupting your ability to participate in class. If the class is lead correctly, they can do what they need to do and I can pull you out of the room and, you know, talk to you and figure out what it is that is going on, even if it is just five minutes of dialogue, Why don+IBk-t you tell me what is going on? You know, I+IBk-m not going to sit there and fawn over you and give you hugs and tell you that everything is going to be perfect in the world, but I am going to offer you realistic advice, as best as I can. But, um, yeah, I think that is definitely something that you learn as you learn the people, as you understand who the people are that you lead and who you are in charge of, because you got to read the room, not everyone can handle that kind of approach. The tough love. We look at that. I'll be very happy to see you. But also, if you were to start messing up on something in my class, I would let you know immediately. But also, I would give you praise when I knew that you deserved it. And when I felt also that maybe you just felt like you needed it.

Interviewer:

It's about developing that talent while also focusing it into the right areas in the right direction.

Zuccarini:

Be kind, but be honest. I do not want to go on a tangent here, but unfortunately, we are at a time and age where everybody gets the proverbial trophy. I didn't really grow up in that era, and it is something that I kind of struggle with personally, as an educator and as a leader, it's like I know that children who I teach are used to kind of getting everything, I have to kind of temper myself as well. So, they may not always be prepared for that. They may just be used to getting a pat on the back, no matter how good or how poorly they perform, et cetera, et cetera. So, yeah, it is a challenge, but that is really the tough love thing. It just kind of comes from knowing what your intentions are with your class, but also just knowing your class, knowing the people that you serve. That is a big deal.

Interviewer:

Going back to how you were talking about how you went to the Howard County school system+ADs- you went through the Howard County school system right?

Zuccarini:

I am, through and through.

Interviewer:

Going back to how you said that everybody is given a trophy nowadays, and how it is very participatory, not everybody has to do well, you are kind of just expected to be there. How has that changed from back when you were a student? And how are you trying to like+ICY- Because obviously you do not necessarily agree with that stance of participation. So how are you trying to implement that into your classroom?

Zuccarini:

It becomes a very slippery slope because obviously, I do not want to be doing something that goes against a county mandate or a policy. That is not ethical. When I was in school, we were held to slightly more rigorous standards, I think. And I'll give you an example. As of just a week ago, Howard County Schools made a new redo policy where a student can redo work all year long. Part of this is also we're looking at this in the vacuum of post COVID. Students are not prepared to be back in school. Students are not mature enough to really think what it is like to be in high school. They have not had a years worth as a freshman, and I think they are trying to+ICY- Well, always. The goal with public education is always to close achievement gaps, whether that's racial or just pure grade and numbers. We're always trying to close specific gaps and provide equity for students in some way or another. And that redo policy. It is a tricky one because you want to hold people accountable for mistakes or the lack of trying that they do. But now you cannot really. And that was never the case when I was a student in Howard County. If you did not do something, you suffered a penalty for it, and you learned. And I felt this. You learned that you would not do that again, and thus you would improve upon it and not let it happen again. And you would basically become self-sufficient. If you received a failing grade, you could not just stamp your foot and ask for a retake. You swallowed that F and you either let it crush you or you let it propel you and make you better. It's an unfortunate side effect of the system trying to just be a little more accepting of all people based on whatever their previous or preconceived experiences with education are. But it is what it is, unfortunately, and I will go along with it. I'm not going to be a stick in the mud. I'm going to follow what my employer mandates to me.

Interviewer:

That's just part of the job. But as being going from your student days, was there a particular moment or particular time or event that led you to wanting to become a teacher during the student days? Was that during College?

Zuccarini:

Well, this is a very personal thing, but when I was studying music, I knew that I was not fit to be a performer. I have talked about this with you and everybody else, but I have terrible performance anxiety when it comes to playing on stage. I failed my first year as a music student at Towson because my hands would shake when I played guitar for finals, and I knew then that was not going to be a thing. And my experience in music was purely casual and recreational until I went to College. I did not study it in high school like you guys, I had no experience. I played for pleasure, I played to kind of get away from things going on in my home. But the teaching aspect, I think that was rooted in my own personal life, because when I was growing up, I have a brother who is handicapped. He's five years older than me. And when I was younger, my mom had to go back to work. And when I was old enough, part of the responsibilities of caring for this handicapped young adult, you are kind of thrust into this grown-up state of mind very quickly. You hear about this a lot, like you hear about kids who have to take care of their relatives or something like that while Mom and Dad are at work, they have to cook meals for their younger siblings or something like that, and that kind of put me into this whole mental place of providing care for something+ICY- or someone rather. And I think it matured me very quickly, but it also kind of put me into this I want to help mentality, and it was just lifestyle, like life was make sure you help your brother and make sure you help your parents and make sure you are responsible and you are taking care of someone. I think as I got older, it just was kind of that natural progression. I was always kind of the dad of my friends. I was always the responsible one. I was not really out partying or anything. And although I look back on that, I am like, man, I could have some fun, but at the same time, when I think about it, in terms of what makes you want to be a teacher, it is that you want to be able to impact peoples+IBk- lives and you want to help them achieve something and you want to care for people. For me, music has always been about teaching students to enjoy and to access a way to create and a way to access emotions through music, because that is what it was for me when I was a teenager and I was falling in love with music, my family life was falling apart, so I would constantly cling to it as a way to kind of get me through the darker times. And I think that one of the driving forces to be a teacher was always to kind of help and kind of you know, what's the phrase? Kind of like, pay it forward. I know that suffering those things was not an original thing. Many people have bad home lives, I am not saying that I was the only one in the world, and I know this. But what I am saying is that as a music teacher, I think you can access and you can reach different people who need things more than what they may be able to get in, like a math class. So long story short, I think my personal life and being in a position where I had to care for another human being at a very different level than most people, kind of put me in that position where I wanted to take what gave me relief and try to give it back to others and teach it. So, there you go.

Interviewer:

I didn't know that. That is so interesting.

Zuccarini:

It is because the thing is, I grew up in a time where if you had a handicap family member, you kept it very quiet because people teased you. And I remember when I transferred to Oakland Mills High School as a sophomore, coming from this really terrible private school. That was the first question I asked. I was like, how do people act around folks with special needs? Because when I was in elementary school, my brother would come home on the short bus, and my classmates would laugh and point when they saw it come by the house and it messed me up. It was terrible. But there was no jigsaw piece on the back of somebodies+IBk- car. Nobody was proud of their autistic children+ADs- they were just kind of trying to figure it out. Nowadays, you kind of have all the research and the data and the support systems. It is crazy when I look at it through my lens now versus what I grew up with.

Interviewer:

Yeah, it is different times. Nobody really understood, and we are at least trying to+ICY- We do understand a lot more about it.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, I think you guys are a lot more accepting than you even know that you are. But, yeah, that was it. Having Ethan as a brother kind of just matured me faster than most kids. It just kind of put me into a mindset of taking care of someone. So, I think that is kind of where it all kind of transitioned. I did not have good educational experiences. I was a terrible student. I was a boy during the Ritalin era. Like, all my teachers in elementary school were like, get that boy pill. And then I finally had a male teacher in elementary school, and that changed everything. And that is not meant to sound like a sexist statement, but realistically, when you think about it, there is not many male teachers for young boys. And I think the more male teachers that young boys have, the better off they are when they are in school. You have a role model that understands you. And the same thing goes for, like, students of color. There are not many teachers of color in the system. And I think that is a whole other ball of wax, but the writing is on the wall.

Interviewer:

Yeah. Everybody looks for those, like role models, people you can relate to. And I can understand, well from my standpoint as a male, those male to male relationships, female to female relationships. Of course, people of color relationships all that stuff very important, especially in a learning environment, because, as I said, the role models, you look up to those people, at least.

Zuccarini:

And you are leading people. And you are trying to create a space safe for learning. And then you want people to trust you.

Interviewer:

Yeah. It is a vulnerable state in learning because some people are really sensitive, at least I was. You do not want people to look down upon you as being not as intelligent.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, of course. Unfortunately, that is a terrible flaw in our system, that it is all. Everything about American culture is all about just competitiveness. It is just who can be the best, who can get the most points, who can get the most touchdowns, et cetera.

Interviewer:

When it's supposed to be cultivating what you find interesting as a person, what you really want to be and become your personality.

Zuccarini:

It's good that you realize that. All right. So, take you to your next question.

Interviewer:

That is great. Well, I mean, you kind of already blended to my next question. Besides, I mean a lot, obviously with your brother, but what other experiences do you think shape you as a leader teaching style or anything like that?

Zuccarini:

I think I had some teachers who when I was learning under them, they made me angry, they were hard and not just like, in terms of difficulty, but just hardness, like emotional hardness. They were just tough. I remember I told you one of those teachers that would sit there with a metronome on one click. And for anybody who is watching this video, a metronome is the thing that clicks back and forth. And when you put it on just one of those clicks out of, like, a series of four of them, you have to really think hard. There were certain takeaways from that, I mean, it was almost like borderline abusive sometimes how angry he would get at us.

Interviewer:

Get a little whiplash moment.

Zuccarini:

It was one of those jarring things in life where I realized that this is an expectation. This is collegiate level music. This is not public-school jamming. I have paid for this, and I am majoring in this. This is my focal area+ADs- I should be taking this seriously. And you kind of experience some of those people in your life where it is like, at first, the knee jerk reaction is I hate this and I hate you, I hate how tough you're being. But then all of a sudden, you start realizing it is like, oh, it is actually paying off. The grind is worth it. And you look back on some of those people you're like, I am glad that you said what you said to me that one time. I remember I went into a lesson one day and I was not prepared. And my teacher without me even playing three notes on the instrument, said, Well, that sounds like crap. Lets start again. And it hurt, it like gutted me to my core because that is all I had. It was like, I only do this. I can only play music, but I had to put my ego aside and I just had to be like, yeah, I deserve that because I wasn't prepared and I'm going to try and fix it now. And after that, I was like, all right, not going to have that comment again when I come to lessons. But it was various experiences with different teachers, occasionally, even sometimes, like working in jobs, like having different managers. But I think it was those who could actually show you that they were empathetic that were the ones that kind of stood out as role models. Not just work, work, work, work all the time, but occasionally you are asking, how are you? Tell me about something you are passionate about? What did you do this weekend? Even the simplest thing like that is how you build a relationship with a team or a group of students or just a person. I think we are so obsessed with chasing after the goal that we are so blind to paying attention to peoples personal needs. I was talking about this yesterday with somebody about how we feel like the humanities are like dwindling, and they always are because STEM takes over everything, but you always start to wonder, like, if people did focus on the humanities, just like even sociology or things like that, would we be better off in the way we interact with people? And would there be as much tension in the world in terms of how people act when they do not look the same or do not know anything about each other? Would they have been better off instead of just taking AP Calc for three years if they had taken sociology and learned about a different culture other than their own? Like, would it have made them better? Getting to know people is a big deal, and teaching is all about teaching the students. It's not about me. It's about the kids. Every educator has to go through the phase of deleting their ego and making it about the student. Yes, your job is hard. Teaching sucks. It is a thankless job. It does not pay well. And there will be many times where you want to stop. And I have been through that, and I am going through it now. But, it is students like you and Ryan and Maddie and Jaden and other names that I can rattle off the top of my head who are a small percentage that makes it worthwhile because you take something from it. You enjoy it. You make it personal for me, too. I can still create some kind of balance where I can make it about all of you. And occasionally there will be somebody who gives it back, which is always nice.

Interviewer:

All you can hope for as a teacher.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, but I think those are the types of people that make good leaders. They realize that they have a job, but they also have to make it focused on the people whom they lead, because without that, it is just blind faith. That is not anything that is going to bring people together.

Interviewer:

Well, that is a form of leadership.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, that's not my style.

Interviewer:

Kanye. You could be Kanye.

Zuccarini:

That is not my vibe.

Interviewer:

You are here to help us understand that+ICY- Well, you are helping us to look broadly. I would say unfocus our vision a little bit, but you want to get past the whole differences and understand that we are all human and seeking, in your case, through music, we are all seeking the same sort of relief, well, we're not all seeking the same thing, but there is a sort of release and comfort in creating and understanding that we all find some sort of enjoyment in music.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, well, because I think when you look at music as a whole, it is a universal language. It is something I have always kind of held true to myself. It is like no matter where you are, no matter who you look like, no matter what language you speak, pull out a musical instrument with another person who has a musical instrument, and I guarantee you will be able to communicate. Age, color, creed, religion, none of it matters. If you can speak through that instrument and jam or whatever it is, that is dialogue. It is unspoken, but it is still dialogue. And I think that is always one of the things that I truly love, when you think about all this old classical music, like yeah, you could go down the road of it is stuffy units for old dead white men, blah, blah, blah. It is European, it is Westernized, it does not represent a whole community. But really, it survived 400 to 500 years because people keep using it, and it still means something to people. Maybe not means everything to every person. Maybe people do have an identity crisis with it. That is fair. But, there is something about it that keeps it going. What is it about music that keeps it going for centuries? The fact that you can just kind of convey it and you can speak with it. You can have conversations with somebody who is completely different and not even know them. It is like the guitar center effect. You sit in the store, you play something, and then there is somebody over in the distance and they are playing something. And then all of a sudden there is that point where the two ears meet and you are like, we are jamming and it is beautiful.

Interviewer:

That is music.

Zuccarini:

I think that is really what it is, because I enjoy the experience of sharing. For some people, music is self-indulgence. For some people it is like, look at me, look at what I can do. Shower me with comments and likes. Do not forget to subscribe. And there is always going to be those people. But I think ultimately, music is important because we need to share those emotions, we all connect. The concert is a collection of souls who have never met each other ever in life. And they are all there for the common sake of enjoying a piece of music. When you think about that, that's the greatest social experiment that there is.

Interviewer:

I was seeing that same thing when I went to the 100 Gecs concert last night. There is a large collection of people there from different lifestyles.

Zuccarini:

But you look around a room you are like, what are you doing here? Join us. Music. You don't look like you should, but I do, right?

Interviewer:

You are all there to enjoy the same thing.

Zuccarini:

You transcend those other boundaries and you just enjoy it.

Interviewer:

Going back to unfocusing and broadening our horizons. What do you think leadership is or what is leadership to you as a person? As a teacher? Any way you decide to come at that.

Zuccarini:

I think to me I feel that if I am being a successful leader, then if I have done my job successfully as a leader, then I do not need+ICY- Eventually I cannot have to count on myself to give students directions. Like if I am thinking teacher students, our ultimate goal is to always have a class that will lead itself. I will not have to always tell you, get tuned before you play. If I have led you correctly and I have instilled a routine, whatever, you will know, I need to be here. I will lead myself. I will hold myself accountable. I will make sure that I am ready to go. And then the second aspects of that are how you hold others accountable. From the hierarchy, the teacher holds the class accountable. You all are rushing or you are dragging or you are not playing these notes correctly. You need to fix that. Then what happens is when you break into, say, like a combo group or something like that, you are responsible for them using the skills that I have instilled into you and leading other people. I think that is really what a good leader does is that they bestow those similar qualities and kind of a micro sense to the people that follow them. I think that is what true good leadership is. I think you develop a culture of small leaders within your room and you develop a culture of confidence and the ability to be a leader, too. I think that is really the big thing. I think if you can give a student the confidence to believe in themselves and the fact that they feel like I can be a leader than I think that you have done your job. I need you to do this for me. And I know that if I have done my job correctly, that you will feel confident enough that you will do it without second guessing yourself.

Interviewer:

That is an interesting concept of being a teacher that you kind of pondered earlier. But as a teacher, you are a leader who is trying to teach others leadership as well. You are bestowing an example upon them, what a leader is and what a leader can be, and you are giving them confidence and example of the follow of how they can grow up and become a leader themselves if they so choose.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, exactly. It is all about giving them opportunities to grow. It is not about like+ADs- I want to turn you into the best CEO of the massive worldwide conglomerate. No, I think that leadership is the ability to help direct people and help to inspire people. And then eventually you have to let go of the reins and trust in your process.

Interviewer:

Fly birdy fly.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, because a leader does not just like helicopter over somebody 24/7 to make sure that they are doing their job. That is micromanaging. That is bad. We have all suffered some kind of boss like that, and that is a bad leader. Nobody respects that. It is the one who can kind of lead with a soft hand just from afar. Like, this is what I expect you. When I check in with you, you and I both know that you will have gotten it done because you have taught this person what the expectation is. They know what it is. You trust that they will be able to do it. You have taught them how to do it, and you eventually let them go. Like parenting. You raise someone well enough and they will be able to take care of themselves and drink enough water throughout the day.

Interviewer:

It is part of the process. Being a leader with Mr. Z, stay hydrated rule number one.

Zuccarini:

Seriously, otherwise you are not going to be leading anything.

Interviewer:

I'll make a big question on this one because there are two questions. What is your leadership style, what your professional strengths and weaknesses? So, you have already kind of talked about your style of soft hand obviously, kind of like directing and divvying up leaders+IBk- responsibility and like the tough love ideal aspect of that. So, like, out of all that, what would you say, the strengths and weaknesses of that system? Also, if you want, you can talk about just like+ICY- shoot, brain fart.

Zuccarini:

I can try and do a strength and weakness if it comes back to you what you're thinking of we can go from there.

Interviewer:

Alright.

Zuccarini:

I definitely feel that the students who I have had the most exposure with turn out the way that I hope they usually do. I look at you as an example. I think that you managed to do everything that you need to do and really kind of direct your life the way it needed to go. And I think that you have turned out to be focused and mature and all the good things that any kind of teacher would want to see a student that they have led through three or four years and watch them grow. But I definitely think currently a weakness that is starting to boil deep in me is that I have to constantly, I am constantly plagued with, not necessarily an insecurity, but it is a self-consciousness of that, the tough love, the hardness, can be misinterpreted, and it will upset students who are not prepared for it. And it is something I have experienced this year. Unfortunately, I had a student they thought I was being rude to them because I told them+ICY- we were doing a piece of music for an ensemble in class, and I knew that they were in orchestra, and I said you should be great at this. And I was not saying it as a way of you should be great at this, what is wrong with you? It was you should be great at this, you are going to be able to lead your group and they took it the wrong way and did not show up to class for three days because they thought that my sarcasm was abrasive and I had to literally corner them in the hallway to hear that from them. And the other thing that I am starting to realize is that my leadership style is not going to be something that will live permanently. It is going to have to go through evolutions because life is changing very quickly and people your age want life to change even faster. And people my age are trying to catch up. You know the whole generational war is a real thing, and it is a pressure, and it is definitely one of my weaknesses right now. I am still trying to just figure out how to educate students on the technical side of like, here is where you put your finger on an instrument. But meanwhile, I have to be conscious of the fact that there are a whole new set of needs for students, and that is definitely an area where I struggle. Personally, I am like, all right, what am I going to do here? What am I supposed to do with this student or this group of students? What do I prioritize? And it is a challenge. Am I a technician? Am I a motivator? Am I a safe space creator? Am I neglecting somebody? Am I leaving a group out in my representation? Am I choosing something that does not offend a course like, am I a social worker? Am I a teacher? Am I a health care provider with COVID? We are so concerned about safety protocols. And in schools am I keeping my students safe? God forbid, something violent happens in a building. Like all of those things, my ability to balance is definitely one of those things that I am constantly not satisfied with and constantly trying to work on because every year it is a new hat that you have to wear, and it is challenging. But I think that beyond all of that, I can still say that I am proud of the ability to rally students together and keep students interested and help them kind of chase after their passions, regardless of how big or small they choose to go for. I did not expect anybody to go for any type of music degree when they graduated because I know that, as we talked about earlier, the drive is STEM, get into tech, make billions of dollars, have three Mercedes, whatever. And I still think it is fascinating that you few are doing that. I love it, and you have managed to hybridize it. You have taken music and you have combined it with business and some slightly more entrepreneurial approaches in order to keep it more modern and relevant, which I think is great.

Interviewer:

That is all that life is. You got to find ways to evolve and adapt and move on with the world. As you said, the world moves very quickly. You have to find a way to hang on.

Zuccarini:

I think there is a quote from Ferris Bueller. Life moves pretty fast, if you do not stop around - if you do not stop and look at it, you are going to miss it.

Interviewer:

That is true.

Zuccarini:

Somewhere in there you can double check that quote, but he says something like that. And it is true.

Interviewer:

I can fact check that later.

Zuccarini:

I think the best leaders are the ones that stay with it, the ones that we resent are the ones that are entrenched in their old ways. It may have worked back then. And this goes into kind of hashtag cancel culture. If you acted a certain way back then, yeah, that was fine. But we are looking at it through todays lens. And unfortunately, that is the way things are viewed. There is no consideration to what was, it is what is, so that is definitely a thing. It is a challenge, challenge for everybody.

Interviewer:

Of course, I mean I am doing another part of this project is we have to review another leader from, past history and all that. That is what history is past history. But I am looking at this or I am analyzing Hideki Tojo, He's the World War II Prime Minister of Japan, and he is an interesting character in the fact that he tried to combine the rigid honor system of Japanese history and culture and try+ICY-

Zuccarini:

Like feudal Japan?

Interviewer:

Yeah. Like, feudal Japan type of deal and merge it with the industrial age and try to propel Japan into the future and make it a natural player in the world powers.

Zuccarini:

He developed his own impasse.

Interviewer:

Yeah. And so, it is like this weird confliction and effectively, it exploded in his face because besides all the great stuff he is trying to do for the country, he paired it with these really rigid and tough things where he experimented on the prisoners of war with these+ICY- crazy stuff like that. And he got tried for war crimes and eventually got executed. But nowadays, you are talking about people view things very differently from our standpoint now and so Japanese culture has - Japan today is very, well, the older generations try to look at him through a more positive lens, like look what he did, we are a technical powerhouse now because he set that fuse. He ignited that fuse of getting us - to doing stuff now. But other people, the younger generations tend to look at him through the more negative lens, look at all the crimes he committed against the people and how he, ruined our relationship with Korea. It is that balance.

Zuccarini:

I think a good rule of thumb for a lot of people nowadays is that you need. And I know, a lot of younger kids hate history, and I think that you need to put that aside and pay attention to it, otherwise you repeat it.

Interviewer:

Exactly, there is a lot to be learned.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, and unfortunately, we see that more often than not lately, especially like our own countrys racial tensions. Like if you are not paying attention to what was it is happening again. When you talk about, the Howard County with the bus across the county, you put those in, a black and white film lens from the 60s, and it looks exactly the same as it did then. I do not want to bus my kids to this part of the county, et cetera, et cetera. And it is the same thing. It is people with picket signs saying that they do not want their students with those kids. You got to pay attention to history, and I understand you want to move forward, progression is everything these days, you got to know what you progressed from.

Interviewer:

You got to know where you came from to know where you are going.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, it is important. I know everybody wants to bash traditionalism and all that stuff, but listen, life happens for a reason. Life continues to happen. It is important to know the baselines. That is just it, your lowest common denominator is just as important as your goal. I think that is going to be a great thing to focus on. I mean, Christ, post war Japan is quite a thing. You are literally recovering an economy from a nuclear holocaust. And now you are, one of the world superpowers. Talk about a rags to riches story.

Interviewer:

Yeah, well rags to riches, back to rags, now back to riches. 80s bubble burst.

Zuccarini:

A lot of people went back to rags at those times.

Interviewer:

That is true, I mean, we had in the 2010s, we had that happen. But this is a bit of a tone switch, but back to more of your coming ups. Who would you consider your greatest influencer? If you do not have a specific influence on yourself, If you you have a bunch of influences, who are your influences?

Zuccarini:

Like as leaders or just kind of in general?

Interviewer:

Let us start out with just like, in general. Well, this is about leaders, Let us focus on the leadership styles. Would you say it is more of, because you were talking about your more hard edge professors who would not necessarily gut you personally, but like they did, those people?

Zuccarini:

Well, I think, I do not know if you knew him, but Mr. Lawrence, the former choir director at Howard. He was my mentor, when I interned at Howard. I interned as a student intern in Howard County. And I was a mess man, I did not know how to teach myself out of a wet paper bag, it was terrible. I was like, I had a bad time with elementary school and then I met Rick, and he put me in the corner of the classroom, he did not give me much time to teach a lot. He made me listen, and study. He was like, I want you to take in as much as you can before you just jump right in. And he was the one that really told me it is like, you got to teach the kids, make it about the kids. Now, granted, that was coming from the perspective of someone who was retiring. He was at the end of his career. But it was wisdom that helped me immediately get rid of my ego, because when you come out of college and you want to be a teacher, the thought process typically is usually like, all right, how can I teach them? What can I do for them? It is all about removing the I statement, the me mentality. It is more about, how can we do this? How can I make this focus for your benefit? Because ultimately and this may sound bitter, but it is like teaching is a revolving door. Students come and go. You get four years with them, if you are lucky, and you got to make sure that those four years count and benefit them. You are there. They come and go. You want to make sure that they get a good impression, they get something positive out of it, and then they leave it is the way it goes. I think he was definitely one of my greatest inspirations and motivators in terms of being an educator because +IBM- and he did not give me much, he gave me little snippets. He did not fill my ears with all this philosophical loquaciousness, all just like talking my ears off for hours and hours and hours about his theories and philosophies on teaching, because when he was doing it, he was very old school. He was hardcore. But those trophies in that room were all earned by him. The proof was there, the quality was there. And as much as he kicked those kids+IBk- asses, he still made it about them, and he made them know that they were great. I think he was really like the one who saved me, in terms of what I was going to do, because at that point, I was not in a good spot. I was not prepared to teach elementary school, did not know what I was doing, and then I finally got to high school for the first time at the end, because Towson was very backwards. Our internships were at the end of our degree. Well, hope you like teaching because you spent three and a half years doing music, and now we're going to get you in a classroom. Since then, they fixed it, but it was very nerve wracking. Especially as an older student, like I was approaching 26 years old, I needed to figure out what I was going to do healthcare wise and all this. I was like, I was freaking out, but he made it happen. What was your question?

Interviewer:

I was going to say, what specifically was he saving you from? Do you think it was just your misdirection of going into elementary school or just not necessarily knowing?

Zuccarini:

He saved me from really, just like, failure.

Interviewer:

He was the hand that guided you into, like, what you wanted.

Zuccarini:

In two months, my time with him showed me that I wanted to teach high school. Granted, I had no other experiences. I had been in the bubble of the classroom. I had been in the theory world. It is just books, reading what others had done, no experience. And then I was thrown out there and I had terrible experiences in elementary schools in Baltimore County was just god awful. And then I finally got to come home. I finally got to come back to Howard County. I got to go to Howard High School, which is right down the street from me. Everything was comfortable, and he was warm, and he was loving in kind of like a fatherly way, which was something I think I needed because I had all these female teachers. And I hate to highlight that, but sometimes you just need to hang around, dudes. If you're a guy, sometimes you just need that level of, goofy testosterone in your day.

Interviewer:

I know guys understand other guys. Girls understand other girls. That's how that works.

Zuccarini:

Sometimes there is that kind of like, that tribal mentality of it. And I had had all female teachers prior to that, they were interning me. And then I finally spent some time with him and I was like, I can finally have a voice as a dude in a classroom. Because I remember when I was doing elementary school, I got in trouble because I would not sing in my falsetto for elementary kids. They were like, you sing too low, like I'm a man, what do you want me to do? And I was like, I tried to sing in my falsetto, and my voice was blown out every single day, I was singing these little kiddy songs in a high voice all day. And it was killing me, literally, I was hoarse by the end of each day, I was like, I cannot sustain this. I cannot make a career out of this. What am I going to do? Like, legitimate panic. Like, physically, I cannot manage to do this. And this is the expectation that you have of me. And, yeah, then I met him. I was like, oh, so I can actually be a male teacher and just be myself. And he encouraged it. There was a certain point where he was like, all right, you are teaching the classes, and if I started to kind of wobble, he would come back in and help me out. But for the most part, it was kind of like, I want you to watch what I am doing, take notes, listen to some music that you do not know about, and then you are going to take it away. He set me up, He made me listen, He made me watch, He made me pay attention, and then he kind of slowly phased me into it, one thing at a time. He gave me little responsibilities because he knew that I would get it, and then eventually I could kind of lead my classes, which is basically what I was telling you earlier. Like, eventually you teach someone how to be sufficient, and then you let them do it. You let them be in charge. That was it.

Interviewer:

It doesn't change. Some aspects of it do not change.

Zuccarini:

No. There are other examples of my teacher at Towson, my private guitar teacher. Him and I butted heads a lot because I was a bad student. I was commuting. I was not focused on school. I did not like College. I did not like going to school. It just was a drag. It was a necessary evil. And I will still never forget it, we had these things called master classes where they would bring, famous guitarists from across the globe, the Baltimore Guitar Society, that lady that came that one day to visit Howard. We had a guitarist who came to Towson. It was my senior year and I was working on a piece of music, and historically, the master classes were, for the hot shot students, the performance majors, the guys that you never saw because they were always practicing, and they just made you feel like utter human garbage because they were so good. Those people. You just were like, I will never be that. I am never going to play in a master class. And I remember that, He actually told me, I want you to be in a master class. I want you to play for this person and I remember messaging him back, I said, I do not feel like I am good enough to be with - and the other teacher was Troy - I was like, I do not feel like I am good enough to be there amongst all of Troy students. He is like, but you are good enough to be there as my student. I was like, damn. And I played my ass off, and that guy, he gave me such a compliment. This world acclaimed virtuoso, He is like, you sing with the guitar. And I was like+ICY- that changed my life. I was like, I came in here with this just basic song, but I played the hell out of it, and I played it for a famous musician, and he just leaned over and told me I was like, it is beautiful. No notes, no notes. Fix that one thing, why are you doing that stupid thing with my music? But that inspired so much confidence in me because I had none, because my teacher had watched me fumble my way through the years, all the performance anxiety and the lack of practicing. And finally, I kind of reached my peak. And he told me that one little thing, and I think that was the thing that really kind of, set me with all the confidence, just kind of do it. It was just that little thing is, be the best of my students. And it made me want to do well by not only myself, but do well for him, because it made me realize the error of what I said. I basically said that, Michael, you do not have any of the good rockstar guitarists, Troy has them all. Effectively, that is almost what I said to this guy, and he is like, be the best of my students, represent me, show the world that I have taught you and led you correctly.

Interviewer:

He was putting his faith, and he knew that you would do well by them.

Zuccarini:

Yeah. And that was kind of, subconscious leadership. And I think I have that conversation screenshotted somewhere because it was just so profound to me because we never had that relationship. It just came out of nowhere. But he knew that I needed to hear that. And I think those good leaders, sometimes you just need to tell those people what you know, that they need to hear. Maybe you do not always agree with it, but you have to do it for +IBM- again +IBM- you have to do it for the students. It is all about them. You had your time. Now, it is about instilling and encouraging them. That was why I would never play showcase with you guys because I wanted to make that stuff about all of you. It was your time to have a moment, not mine. I would direct it. I work behind the curtain. But ultimately, you are the ones who work the hardest and you deserve your moment. And you had to get it. And that is that. So, yeah, I think those were two of my big inspirations. I mean, I could rattle on about famous people, which things like that. But I did not have personal encounters with them. I had it with these teachers.

Interviewer:

What is your direct influences?

Zuccarini:

I wish I had more. I will be honest with you as I look back on it as a teacher now, I am like man, you all sucked. You were terrible. You just gave up on me, and it creates a bitterness, but it also creates a drive to be like, I cannot be that way. I got it myself. Like when I have Jimmy Dingdong who does not want to play guitar in class, and then he is like, failing. I have to be softer and be like, alright, what can we do to get you some points in class so you are not failing? Do I want to be here and be like, teach you a lesson, giving you an E? Or do I want to teach you a lesson by showing you that there is kindness out there and that someone supports you?

Interviewer:

There is no one right answer for every student. Everybody is different. You have to come at it from a different perspective. What do you need for me to give to you?

Zuccarini:

Yeah, you have got to lead them with a good example.

Interviewer:

The other question I could do is we have been talking about various steps and stuff all the time about leadership and stuff. But would you say there any specific steps in leadership? What two or three specific steps would you say are great for enabling people to be - like your students - to be successful? I know that is a big one. I'm saving the big one for last, you will not like the last question.

Zuccarini:

I like it. I am just trying to think about+ICY- What steps you are asking, what steps would you say enable good leaders? Is that what you're asking me?

Interviewer:

Well, as a leader yourself, what two or three actions or steps do you think do you believe are essential for enabling others to be successful?

Zuccarini:

Okay. I think from my perspective, as somebody who leads a group of people, I think one of the biggest things for their success and their growth is to create a sense of community. If we are thinking about a classroom, I want this to be a place where we all can enjoy one another and work together and achieve a goal together. I think creating community collaboratively. All the buzzwords, but I think building community and building a place for people to feel like they are welcome and they will work and grow together and achieve together, I think that is a big one. If we did not create the classroom environment that we created, we would have never been able to do half of the things that we did. We all were in it together. We all knew each other, we worked together, we got to know each other, and we would have never been able to do half the things that we did had we not had that sense of community and belongingness or belonging, not belongingness. But that sense of belonging in a place where we could all come together. So, I think building a strong sense of community is a big one. As I mentioned before, I think the other thing is try to understand the people that you are leading and understand and try to integrate what it is that they need, because leadership is not a one size fits all, like teaching, is it? You have got to improvise. It is not classical music, it is jazz. It is ever changing. It is always evolving, and you are not going to get the same child 32 times. You are going to get 32 different personalities. And part of the challenge, and I think part of what makes a good leader is the ability to meet and provide for those 32 different personalities. And that is hard. That is why not everybody is a great leader, because that is no shame to the people that do not do it. But that is why there are great leaders. And that is why there are good leaders, and that is why they are just leaders. The ability to really personalize your interactions with people and give them the specific help that they need. You know in education we talk about there is different types of learners, there is spatial learners, there is visual learners, aural learners, kinesthetic learners, like people that learn different ways. And there is this guy named Howard Gardner, He talks about multiple intelligences, and there is different, like there is musical intelligences, there is visual intelligences. And he is an educational philosopher and he talks about in order to be able to reach more children, you need to understand that there are different learners. There are different intellects. There are different brains out there. So, I have done this work in an effort to help you understand that there is more than just the kid that can do work when you tell them to do work, pick up your pencil, scratch in your bubbles, put down your pencil, it is not just that. So, I think another viable skill for a leader is to be able to diversify your teaching approach or diversify your leadership approach. Understand that you have a lot of different variables and if you want to be good at what you are doing, then you need to make the sacrifice that it is not just going to be the one approach that you do, but you are going to try different ones. I think a third one would just be, to be honest with the people. I think it is important to just be forthright. And sometimes you got to temper it like, do not always just, do not just be a jerk. But I would never lie to any of you and tell you that you were doing well when you were not, but I would not purposefully drag you through the mud if I did not have a plan about how to improve you. Just like when my teacher said to me, that sucked. That hurt, but I am sure he knew that I would hear that and be like, yeah, I am going to be a little pissed for the moment, but it is going to spur me to work harder. And that was probably him kind of probing, like how much can I push this kid? Yeah, I think being honest and having respectful candor is more important than flowery gushy sugar coating. I agree that creating a safe place for students, but when your whole emphasis of your classroom is, this is a safe space. I love you all like, that whole thing. I do not love you all, you are work for me, you are hard to deal with sometimes, you are emotional roller coasters.

Interviewer:

Of course, that is children. That is the business

Zuccarini:

That is people, baby. Everyone is a mess. You do not have to be with everyone every second of the day. I do not want to spend time with you after school. I want you out of my office. I do not want to see you this weekend. I do not want to think about work, and I am going to be honest with you, I am going to let you know that, but when we are in this room together, we are having our 50 minutes, you are getting all of me. You are getting 100+ACU- of an authentic me. I am not going to BS you+ADs- I am going to give it to you straight. And that way, you know that every time I say something, you know, that it is for real. And that is why, you know, if it is praise or if it is reprimand. Like, if I am telling you that line sucked that you just played, and I know that you can play it better. You know that you have done something that you can do better and you believe that I am going to tell you that you can do it, because I have said it, and I am honest with you. I'm not going to be like, well, that was ok, that was really good, and it sounds like turds. That is not good. And that is that whole participation thing, it is like everybody won the race, meanwhile, like five kids are still running while I am handing out trophies, they are still trying to get to the finish line. It is not setting people up for the realism of life. And again, we come back to the whole leader is supposed to create people that can lead themselves and if you are going to be honest with somebody, you are going to get them prepared for what life is like. Like that girl at your graduation when she said you all are not ready for real life, the Howard County bubble is about to burst. It is the truth. I am not satisfied if I graduate a four-year group of students and they are not prepared to just kind of like, do the whole life thing and we cannot have honest conversations about it, then I know that I failed. But if I know that I can have honest, mature conversations with all of you and that for the most part, I can see that you get it and you are not leaving the room crying because you understand that we have this kind of level playing field, then+ICY- Yeah, that is it. I think honesty and forthrightness. I think that is an essential thing for being a good leader, because that is just it. Because if you are not, you are passive aggressive and then you create tension in the next place that you go be honest, just be honest with people. Get to the point already. Do not talk around in circles. Just be honest. Care about your feelings? Do it right. Do it for the sake of everybody else. No. But that is tough love, though. I would say that, Are you crying? There is no crying in guitar. There is no crying in baseball, either. A quote, that is from A League of Their Own.

Interviewer:

That is a good movie.

Zuccarini:

That is a great movie. But that is it, that is that tough, honest love. Those girls worked their butts off for him because he started doing that on them. But that is it, man. He made sure that they knew what they needed to do, whether he was there or not. I think the big ones are know your people and cater your leadership styles towards them a little bit. Obviously, do not sacrifice your own integrity, but be cognizant of the fact that people have needs. To be honest, I forget what the first one I said was.

Interviewer:

It will be in the video.

Zuccarini:

It will be in the video, thank God for the recording. Those are the big ones.

Interviewer:

Yeah, all right. Last question.

Zuccarini:

Okay, last question.

Interviewer:

This is a doozy, you have been talking for the last 50 minutes or so, proud of you. Thank you of course.

Zuccarini:

Hey man, I told you I would be happy to help.

Interviewer:

All right, here it is. Last question. What do you want your legacy to be? It is the big one.

Zuccarini:

Oh, man. What would I want my legacy to be? So, like when I am dead and buried, what do I want people to remember me as?

Interviewer:

This video. Or you could be like, how does it feel knowing that your style of leadership has impacted people like me and other students like Jayden, Maddie, Ryan. Stuff like that. We are your legacy.

Zuccarini:

That is true, when I look at you all I am like, yeah, I am proud of that. I can hang my hat on that.

Interviewer:

That is a weird thing, is being a teacher, you leave behind people who remember you and take your teachings to heart, hopefully.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, that is the thing. Like I said, I am a revolving door. People come and go in my life.

Interviewer:

You see a lot of people.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, I am grateful that I have people like you, like people that stay in contact. But it is like, 1+ACU- of the people I teach. My legacy, I think it would be kind of, still centered around what I think are the fundamentals of being a good leader. It is like, I want you to strive for excellence. Oh, community, that was the first one. I want you to strive for excellence. I want people to remember to be good and kind to one another, and encouraging. I think I would hope that my legacy would have been that I encouraged them and enabled them to be creative, and to have an original thought of their own. And to hold themselves accountable. I think that would really be my legacy, transcending beyond, just like play the right notes. I think really one of the things I really expect, especially from my students who I teach at a higher level, my older students, the ones who I have had for three or four years. I would hope that my legacy would always be that I am great and I should be great. That is something that a student of mine when they are done with me and they pick up an instrument again or something like that. I want them to be like, I should be great, and I am great. I want them to just kind of like, have that, have that moment be like, I worked for this. I received that honest feedback, I worked with other people. Hopefully, the legacy is that I made it about them and that I could give them something that they will not forget, just like my teacher gave me that moment with that famous guitarist. Of all the bumps and ups and downs with him and I had with each other, that is the lasting memory that I will always have with him. That one little glimmer of kindness at the end, because it was tumultuous, stressful, I skipped lessons. I did not show up, like it would be terrible, but that one time he made me feel like I was a million bucks. And I would hope that my legacy would be something similar where it is just I helped you all, or I at least just created a place where you all could come, where you would just be creative, and you would be happy, and that you would work to be excellent. I do not know, It is hard to say.

Interviewer:

Of course, it is a big question, it is broad.

Zuccarini:

I have not been doing this long enough to think of what my legacy would be.

Interviewer:

Exactly, you are still young, you got a long way to go.

Zuccarini:

That is the thing, I do not know how much longer I will be doing this teaching.

Interviewer:

Teaching sure, but life in general.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, but when I think about the things that people tell me, when kids reach out to me, they are very grateful for the experiences that they got, and that will be forever what it is. It will always be, I hope that my legacy will really be, that I put you first, because that is always the promise is that it is always about the kids. This last winter, a student. I cannot remember her name right now, but she emailed me in the middle of January because she knew it would have been showcase. And she sent me this long, gushing email about how thankful she was that she got the opportunity to do it and she will have that memory forever. I never taught this kid. They just sang three nights in January one year, and it was one of the most memorable experiences of their life, and it was enough for them to decide to write a man who they had no other experience with, an email just to tell them how much they loved it and how thankful they were. That touched me. I am not going to lie. It was unexpected. It was not asked, and it came out of nowhere. I was like, all right, well, that is nice. And it is those moments that I think keep me going as a teacher, feeling like I have helped someone express themselves and help someone realize their gifts. You know, just help someone. Hopefully, I have helped people be excellent for music and just be excellent people, because that is my job. That is what a teacher does. That is what the leader does, I guess, I do not know, I am trying to stitch all this together.

Interviewer:

I appreciate it.

Zuccarini:

I think that would ultimately be it. When you look back five years, you are sitting at home all of a sudden, take five comes on. You are like, damn. I remember Mr. Z worked our butts to the bone to learn this piece of music, but I was able to do it, and I did it, and I was awesome at it. He helped do that. He helped enable me and encourage me through all that tough love, stopping and starting and abruptly scolding us to make sure that we were right. But then lifting us up on high just to make sure that everyone heard us be awesome, because that is the thing. I am going to kick your butt. But you know what? I am going to kick your butt all the way to the top of that podium. Going to be up there, it is going to be sore, but you are going to be at the top of the mountain, and everyone is going to see you, because you worked. You put that time in.

Interviewer:

I think that puts a nice little bow on it.

Zuccarini:

I hope so. It is really hard to, kind of analyze myself like that.

Interviewer:

Yeah, I know, I cannot do it.

Zuccarini:

Honestly, you may be one of the first people to ever ask me these kinds of questions.

Interviewer:

Yeah, this has been super interesting. I have had a great time doing this, learning about you. It is great.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, I guess so.

Interviewer:

Because I experienced it firsthand, your techniques and stuff and never really, came to realize what gave you those qualities. So, it is interesting to learn where those types of qualities came from, because, I do not know, you are definitely the greatest teacher I ever had. And you have bestowed upon me a lot of knowledge. But also, you are just cool guy. I also felt like I could come to you for anything.

Zuccarini:

Likewise, you have been an awesome student. Like I said, I have loved watching you grow. Like I told you when I last talked to you, I feel like you are definitely kind of like leaving a lot of these kind of, duds in the dust. You are doing a lot of great stuff, and I think I am hoping that you will go to Europe and kind of figure out something about yourself and just kind of break the mold a little bit because I think you are definitely capable of it. I see things in you that you do not see.

Interviewer:

Well yeah, that is just you being a teacher and being able to analyze kids brains and all that.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, that is also part of it. That is me being old, too. I have said a lot of the things we do in life are not original, and if you pay attention to history enough, you start to see people do the same thing over and over. You fall in love, you fall out of love, tragedies come, happiness comes, et cetera, et cetera. But no, man, you are excellent. I mean, you did so many great things. You grew so much, you became such a wonderful musician. And even despite those times where practice was not happening or whatever, there were still like, those golden moments where you were just on top of the world.

Interviewer:

I will remember those for the rest of my life. As you will remember your golden moments. That's how it is. We have these moments+ADs- we will remember forever. They shape who we are.

Zuccarini:

Yeah, I think so. I think we need to+ICY- I think that my job is to make sure that at least somebody gets a golden moment. Hopefully. I would feel bad if I did not give them one, but you know what? Sometimes it just does not happen. But I can usually hang my hat on the fact that I have helped somebody have a moment that is about them, because you do not always get that. You do not get that in math or English. You do not get an applause. I remember they were like, Why do you want to be a teacher? Why do you want to teach music? I was like, because I think all children deserve to be applauded for their efforts sometimes. I think recognition is a big deal.

Interviewer:

It is, I think so.

Zuccarini:

They never did concerts before I came to Howard. I was like, well that is unheard of. I mean, all these kids just work ten months out of the year for nothing. Just to sit in a white room and play freaking smoke on the water. Nah nah nah nah nah nah, we are going to do a concert. We are going to showcase the height of their abilities and people are going to clap for them, and they are going to feel great about it.

Interviewer:

Do you have any idea how happy it would make any child to play a piece of music for their parents or guardian or anyone, friends and have them be like, that was good.

Zuccarini:

You are good at that. Genuinely like, wow. You are good at something. That is a great feeling, man. I loved that when I was a kid. Like hearing people cheer me on, like this is the best feeling in my life. Everything else sucks. That little bit of validation was amazing. And it is hard nowadays because everyone is out there like seeking validation like a drug. Your social media life is like crippling. But the authentic moments of validation, you cannot put a price on that. Yeah.

Interviewer:

Yeah. Alright, I think that is all we are going to get out of this. That was all of the questions. So, thank you, Mr. Z, I appreciate your time.