Claire: Hi, my name is Claire Cole and today on November 7th at 12:55pm,
accurate. I am with Dr. Mark Lane in his office, the adjunct office at Belmont in the JAAC, we are meeting to conduct an interview for my Global Leadership Studies class. We have a course project. So, this is our final project where we have to write a paper on a historical figure and I chose Catherine the Great, so I will be doing that. We choose an interviewee that we think is a leader in their field and has been influential in leading throughout their life. We are going to get started with some questions I have prepared and some that my instruction has also given us.Mark: Okay.
Claire: And as some foreground, Dr. Lane is currently my professor for American
Public Policy. I have taken two of his courses previously at Belmont. Just an icebreaker, how are you doing today?Mark: I am doing fine. I am doing fine. This term seems to be going well, I am
kind of behind on my grading but I perpetually stay behind on my grading.Claire: Ha-ha. Well, you get us our stuff pretty timely, so that is nice. So,
our questions are talking about your experience with leadership and how you've led in your field. What experiences have led you to where you are today. So, could you tell me a little bit about your professional background and experience that has shaped you as a leader or as a professor today?Mark: Well, I came-- as old as I am, me in my early seventies, I have decided
that I wanted to do something I enjoyed. I had been a teacher ever since 1972 when I got my master's degree at Florida State. I interned at Tallahassee Community College and taught International Relations.Claire: Okay.
Mark: From that point on, I was in and out of teaching, depending on if I was
working for myself or working for the federal government and everything. And I realized that I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it a lot, and I did. I always thought that I would end up as a full-time teacher. You might say that, I guess I have arrived at doing that-- I am not full time but I've got so many classes, it is like I am double full time. So, the more classes I teach I feel like I said "Well do I really want to continue this?" The answer is, obviously, emphatically, yes. I love it. It also keeps me young, engaging with young people like yourself in new ideas. I just enjoy it. I have to say that the first thing I did when I got out of college, I went into work at Eglin Air Force Base and I was a contracting officer there. I spent three years taking courses inside the Air Force in systems command and I ended up being contracting officer. Which, of course, I never thought I would probably use that in teaching, but I actually have! I teach a course, I think you're going to take it next time as a matter of fact, Negotiating Across Cultures. That was when I was first exposed to that so it kind of interested me, how do you negotiate with the Egyptians, I saw a little bit of that. How do you negotiate with the Iraqis, back then? I saw a little bit of that too. So, you get that feel. And how do you relate to people? I did that in business selling products to the Japanese and I started learning about culture and the role it plays in negotiations. So that is one aspect, but at the same time I have always been interested in American history and I have been interested in Western civilization, history and world history. I have gotten more deeply involved in that as well. When I started to work here at Belmont, I really enjoyed the idea that they would give me the opportunity to teach various courses. I started out with Political Science and then I went to other ones such as US and World Affairs, taught that several times. Now of course, Negotiating Across Cultures, and I've just really enjoyed teaching here and that is having a good dean you work for--Dr. Vaughn May is an excellent dean, he really is and Belmont is lucky to have him. I have also taught at places like Motlow Community College, Vol State, and I've taught at Cumberland. But I would have to say that Belmont is probably, I don't want to say my favorite spot, but has made it more comfortable than anything to teach there and teach basically what you want to. I always like the idea that Vaughn always asks me would you like to teach American Policy or teach this. It has exposed me to other things that I would not necessarily do, and of course if he wants something done, I make sure it gets done.Claire: Yes! What part of your personal biography or background led you to the
position you are in now, teaching at different colleges. You said you are basically double time at this point!Mark: Someone asks me, are you teaching full time? I say it is hard to answer
that because I am really an adjunct but at the same time, I teach more than full timers do. Usually, they have four or five classes, maybe six at the most for a full timer. I have taught as many as ten or eleven classes. I think this time I am teaching nine.Claire: Okay. What do you think has led you to this in life? I know you said you
have a passion for teaching specifically at these universities.Mark: I tell my students, you always learn, you never stop learning and if you
do that, that is what led me more than anything. I constantly want to be exposed to new ideas. That is the way I run my classes, I like to get students involved, give me their ideas about how to solve a problem and I enjoy doing that. I feel like I am fairly successful in engaging them and getting them to think outside the box. I enjoy it and as far as something that clicked maybe, I guess when I looked out there [the realm of career opportunity] I was teaching at Hurlburt Air Force Base one night and I had three people in my class that worked with me--two captains and a major--and I looked out there, I just got out of college a couple of years earlier and here I am teaching them about international relations. We had a discussion, and they still remind me of this today, and I am not happy about this, but they say what do you think the future holds for the world and especially the United States of America? This was in 1974-75ish and I said we feel like we are invincible and the problem we are going to have is that there will be things--you can see it today in Ireland, that was back then, where you had the IRA and terrorist activities there, and I commented on that. We will have terrorism one day even on the shores of the United States, I wish I was wrong about that. I wish I could, y'know, if there was any way I could prevent that--but being in a position to be able to bring those things up is important I found out. Because I had no avenue to be able to do that, but through my education and extra reading and things like that on the topic, you could tell that it was something that we were going to have to cross that bridge and it was going to define us. We see the last twenty-five years; it has pretty much defined us.Claire: Yes, it has. It has changed the way we [the United States] see the
outside world, especially the Middle East.Mark: It is sad.
Claire: Yeah, it is sad.
Mark: It's sad because I think we could have done a better job at it.
Claire: Yes, instead of villainizing everyone.
Mark: The idea that you either love us [the United States], or you are either
with us or against us--it really doesn't play well.Claire: No, it is an ultimatum. It doesn't do well for other cultures either.
What cultural identities or experiences are most important to you?Mark: I think when I was a salesperson and I sold golf clubs all around the
world, I understood that the personal relationship meant a lot. I think that is pretty much it as far as international relations when you really get down to it because trade is important. I sold more than anybody and the reason I did that was because they were nice and I was nice to them, I took care of their wants and needs. They made sure they did the same for me. I would always make sure I saved the product that everybody wanted and I would send an email out and say "I've got this product if you're thinking about it, I think I can get it for you. Tell me what your bottom line is and I will tell you if it is doable. I did a lot of business with the Japanese, I did a lot of business with the Egyptians, UAE. I did a great deal of business with the English, over there. Many people in places like Luxemburg and in Europe, it was really quite interesting--and Canadians I did a lot of business [with]! The bottom line of that is, they could've bought those products from anywhere, but they bought them from me. I had a personal relationship with all of them. I think that is important to understand. I learned more about culture as far as the situation in Japan and what they demand from someone that is selling them products. I think that is important for us to understand. I think that it is extremely important for us to do business with respect for both sides and I think that we lacked that in the sixties and seventies, but we definitely got into that in the eighties and nineties. I think that was very very important and that was a good lesson for me before I started teaching full time.Claire: It is a triangle of how to actually succeed with cultures. We have
respect, we have cultivating relationship and we have actually learning about their culture so that you have a different understanding.Mark: I think that is important. There are certain countries that we need to
understand that we have offended. Mexico for example, I know we don't think of that, but we have offended them. We go back to the US Mexican War in the 19th century. Then we can go to how do you conduct business with China and all of these are important things we need to address, but it always seems we have a hiccup or two that prevents us from putting our best foot forward.Claire: Yes, I agree. What experiences have most shaped you as a leader?
Mark: I think knowing that there is a chance to do the right thing and I think I
lot of people don't understand that all of my students will eventually have the same choice to make. You will be called upon to stand up. It might be a mistreatment of a fellow worker; it might be something that you see in public or whatever. Many people shy away from that. I think when I was a young boy, just out of college, I would not say a man for sure, I was on a date. There was a guy that was about six foot four, big guy, came around with a paper for everyone to sign. It was a paper to support Lt. Calley who was one of the officers at the My Lai Massacre. It wanted to make sure that he did not end up going to jail. That was a defining moment for me because I looked at him, he was a pretty big guy, and I said "No, I can't sign that." He said "Well, you've never been in a war." And all of that and I said "No, I haven't. My father has." I have had many conversations with him, he has fought in three of them now, Vietnam was his last one. I can say for a fact that not all the people in the military would have done that. That was a defining moment for me right there to understand. Other people will have that opportunity one day, to defend something they believe in. It will not be an easy choice.Claire: No. Once you start, you can't really stop.
Mark: Chief warrant officer Thompson, who was at My Lai, he said when they ask,
when young people ask him, about his experience and he says do the right thing but it is not going to be easy. We all know what happened to him. That was sad, it was very sad. [Thompson noticed Lt. Calley and his troop murdering and raping Vietnamese unarmed civilians and children, Thompson intervened and was able to evacuate some civilians]Claire: For people watching, what happened to him?
Mark: He did not like me not signing. Afterwards, when he left and everything,
two or three people sitting around the table next to me were happy I did that. It is almost like you are put into a corner, they are not asking you, they want you to sign it.Claire: They are telling you to sign.
Mark: It was sad.
Claire: Were you called into leadership or did you seek it because of your held convictions?
Mark: In teaching?
Claire: I know you've talked about some of your, in class, your history with
protesting and things like that. I know you were kind of a leader in some of those groups.Mark: Those were mainly environment back in the 1970s. I stayed away from the
Vietnam War mainly because my father was serving over there in Vietnam, so I didn't think that it would be appropriate for me to be involved in that. I had my opinion, which I discussed with him quite a bit. But when I finally did something, it was over the environment way back then. Which most people did not notice back then, you would've thought that that generation would have been 100% on that. In the seventies, it wasn't that way, so it was about twenty or thirty of us hardcore people at Florida State that would every now and then go out and demonstrate about clean air and clean water. Which the Clean Air and Clean Water Act was passed in the early seventies when I was in college, as a matter of fact. We had the cleanest air and cleanest water and that was passed with Richard Nixon as president. I've always told that story about Nixon having two brothers with asthma, and one of them died as a result of that. He said if he ever could get in a position of power to do something about it, he would. I make sure I repeat that in every class in political science that people can make a difference and it affected him personally. He went the extra mile. Just like Barack Obama with Obamacare went the extra mile with his mother who was dying of cancer and watching her deteriorate. It's a motivator. It wasn't anything like Nixon's and it wasn't anything like Barack Obama's, but it was my motivator, yeah, I wanted to get involved.Claire: Would you say that for most leaders their convictions are what lead them
to get involved?Mark: I think so, I think so. I think it originally, that is it, and then after
that, something personal might happen and energize it even more. Like it did with Nixon and Obama.Claire: I know we read a book recently, Leaders Across Times, I believe. It was
about Teddy Roosevelt, Lincoln, FDR and Wilson. That just reminds me of the book because a lot of them had personal connections to what they wanted to see changed. They weren't necessarily called to lead.Mark: Policy more or less.
Claire: Yes, they knew what they wanted.
Mark: Well, funny you mention Teddy Roosevelt. Because Teddy Roosevelt, I
thought, I've read every book there is I could find on Teddy Roosevelt and the more I read about him, the more I understand that he was basically saying that I am qualified to be president of the United States and I think I could do a better job than anybody else. He truly believed that and he did for the time. He was the first action president we ever had. I think Sydney Melkis does a good job at describing that, the author. I believe there are several others that did a really good job, I want to say David Mullocough, he had a good one recently about the younger years of Teddy Roosevelt. He was determined to make a difference. Now, maybe that was the old idea back then of noblesse oblige, obligation of the nobility, because obviously the Roosevelts were definitely--Claire: Yes, they were very connected, of course, and wealthy and influential.
Mark: Yeah, but Teddy Roosevelt adored his father in a lot of ways, except for
one but I don't really worry about it. But he adored his father and he was aiming to please him and by doing so he pleased a lot of people. A lot of people. He did a very good job as president. That is not to say he is perfect.Claire: No.
Mark: Yeah, he definitely wasn't. There were some faults that he had.
Claire: Imperialism (laughs).
Mark: Oh yeah! He thought it was our right and our duty etc. Which is, y'know,
is another discussion. But still you get a feeling that destiny was riding with him and he imparted that to you as president. He invented the modern-day press conference. He was very very instrumental in getting things done and he also interjected himself under a variety of issues such as foreign policy. He won the Nobel Peace Prize negotiating the Russo-Japanese War. The idea of interjecting his power as assistant secretary of the Navy in the 1890s when he sent a top-secret order to Admiral Dewey, a US squadron was stationed in Hong Kong at the time and he got one when Teddy Roosevelt when he was operating secretary of the Navy because the secretary of the Navy was on vacation. He sent him an order that basically said that in the event of war with Spain, you are to proceed to Manilla and destroy the Spanish fleet and seize the city. Well, he stuck it in the safe and then war broke out and he pulled it out and there goes the United States halfway around the world. I wonder how McKinley felt about that, there was not much he could say about it because it was after the deed was already done.Claire: And just like, this is kind of a question that relates to what we've
been talking about. What or who has been your greatest influence?Mark: My father, my father. He was a very good man, he always spent time with me
and relayed stories that he had when he was a child. He was from the "Greatest Generation" and his father was a very good man as well, a hard-working family. I think that in the bottom line when I am looking at what he did, as a young boy, things like well "I want a paper route but I need a bicycle, I don't own a bicycle." So, he rented his friend's bicycle, which he got run off the road one day and it was wrecked. So, he had to pay back his friend to buy him a new bike, so he worked four months to pay him back for the bicycle that he borrowed. He did things like that. At six years old, he went into a grocery store and said "I will be happy to sweep your store out each time and rearrange the fruit and throw the old fruit away that is rotten if you let me have two pieces of fruit every day." And of course, this was something that--here is a six-year-old boy telling the owner of the grocery store! He says, "Okay well you be here at six o'clock before your school at seven and you work an hour for me, then you can go to school." I always thought that it was interesting that he would generate that. Soon he would be, at age seven, he would be an assistant butcher. His idea was to come in every Saturday and he would butcher two hundred chickens. He would hang them upside down on the clothes line out back and go around, chopping their heads off. I am sitting here like my gosh weren't there any regulations or anything? He said, no not back then, but it was during the Depression and I wanted to do anything I could to make some money. Jobs were hard to come by, so he did that. He got the pot and it to boil, and he plucked the feathers off, and when the butcher came in, he cut up the chicken. It was kind of interesting that these little things that we would always do--oops our lights went out! You may have to raise your hand veery now and then with this automatic timer. I always thought that here's a guy that does anything he can to keep one step forward and he did a good job, he did a good job. He ended up going to work at Chickasaw shipyard with his grandfather building liberty ships. Yeah! In fact, my grandfather worked on the ship that brought my father back from the Pacific.Claire: Oh my gosh, he brought him home.
Mark: Yeah, he brought him home. So, there was that relationship. The last thing
I will say about my father because he was so influential, in the Korean War, he arrived there just as the fighting died down. There were a lot of orphans, lots of orphans in Korea. There were sixteen of them hanging out outside of the gate of the base he was at, NG or Ning they called it. He said we didn't know what to do with these children. They ranged from ages three, four and all the way up to fifteen. He basically put them in, brought them in, and assigned them different jobs to do. The little girls that were there went with the nurses, so they let them stay in their quarters. What is important about this is that these people were given an opportunity. My dad tried to figure out, okay a lot of you will be going back home and you will not be seeing this place anymore, but you know these children, so let's see if we can do something for them. So, he went by every now and then and he would see a poker game and he would have every one of them contribute money to it. Of course, everybody was doing the best they could and sometimes they got to the point where they needed the entire paycheck, so they put the whole paycheck in there. You had about four or five thousand dollars at the end of about seven months. He is getting ready to get back to the States. He went down and went down to the Mennonites, there's a church there and they had an orphanage which was just overflowing. He says, "Can you take these sixteen children? I've got enough money saved up to pay for their schooling all the way through high school." They say, "We'd love to but we just don't have room." He said, "Well, what if I built you a barracks, like a barracks-like structure, that you could put the children in. You could split it up between the female and the males." They said, "Well, why I guess we could do that." In other words, if you're gonna do the cost of it--and so as they were stripping this base down for timber and everything, they had plenty of timber, and it would end up in that orphanage and they built that. Then they gave them the extra money that went along with it to pay them to educate those children through high school, so all of the orphans got a place to stay and they ended up getting educated. I always wonder what happened to all of them and if they remember the soldiers that helped out.Claire: I bet they did.
Mark: I think so, I think so too.
Claire: Because my dad was in Afghanistan and Iraq and I would see pictures of
them with the kids and stuff. Y'know like, he would always say I can't make a big difference but they always remember us every single day. It's so simple but we can just remember their names and bring them little toys and stuff. Y'know? So, your dad went far beyond anything that was expected.Mark: When I gave his eulogy, I said the most thing, y'know he fought in three
wars, but the most thing that impressed me was in the Korean War and I would tell that story.Claire: That is amazing, maybe we should look it up sometime and see if it is
still there, if that church or orphanage.Mark: It would be interesting; he knew it was the Mennonites orphanage but he
didn't know if they were still there or not when I talked to him.Claire: I bet we could find out! How have you learned from obstacles and
challenges you've faced?Mark: The one thing that I think is important is not to expect anything and do
the best you can. As long as you can lay your head down on a pillow at night and know you've done the best you can, I think that is important. There are obstacles for everybody in life, some people it might be an illness, some people it might be a disappointment and some people might want to get a certain job and all of that. But everybody can overcome that and I think that knowing that you've done your best, your very best, to overcome a variety of things--that's what is important. Because that is what you take with you as you get older.Claire: We read a book recently about brick walls in our life and how they are
not physical, they are mental or emotional, but there are ways to get around them. Sometimes if you're not meant to get around them, you'll find something else to go through, walk through, to climb over, go under, go around.Mark: It is always good to challenge yourself, I think it's like you're testing
yourself, but it definitely I think--Sergeant Thomspon, y'know that I referred to at My Lai, he was right. Don't think that you're going to get thanked for doing something like that, you just do what you have to do and know that you're right about doing it.Claire: So, could you relate that back to your protesting? You weren't expecting
any praise or anything from it.Mark: In fact, I remember that when I got back, I didn't even tell anybody about
it. I just did it because I thought it was something that needed to be done. But it doesn't--when you do something like that, you feel good about yourself and that is reward enough.Claire: Yeah, I have had that kind of struggle as well because I have protested
in Nashville for Black Lives Matter and for the Roe v. Wade Planned Parenthood rallies. It is always like, am I out here, because I feel good afterwards, like I am doing something, but is it almost a bit wrong--y'know because it is self-fulfilling sometimes.Mark: It is okay, it is okay to go out and do things and get involved. Okay? You
just want to make sure you do everything within the law--which obviously you do and I did too. But at the same time, understanding that people, if you do that, people will know it and they will find out about it. I think that is important because you are a very very good student and you bring up all sorts of issues in class, which I think is fantastic.Claire: Thank you, thank you. I like the structure of your classes though
because I don't think that people like Sam or Logan--anyone--would usually voice their solutions or frustrations or ideas unless you specifically are like "Sam get up here! Talk to us!"Mark: (laughs) Well, like today, I think Sam went up there and he did a very
good job.Claire: Yes, he did! Yes.
Mark: And Natalie did a very good job on the adoption crisis, which in Tennessee
they don't think is an adoption crisis but it is! I thought that was y'know, these were the things that were bothering these people. What're you gonna do yours on next time? Just remember I am gonna call on you.Claire: I don't know. I think I need to think of something we haven't talked
about, which we have covered a lot of things, so maybe something more international might be good. Yeah.Mark: That would be great. I know when I taught this American Policy class I was
wondering if I should include international affairs and international relations because I've got other classes for that at the same time, would it be redundant? I thought long and hard about it and I said well there's a lot of domestic issues that we have not covered. But we have covered quite a few in this class, and most of that is give and take. Well, okay, that's a problem, now let's figure out a solution. How can we do something about this?Claire: Yes.
Mark: I think that is, when you get into that, that is the hard thing when you
get into American Policy: do you have a solution?Claire: It seems that most of our solutions come back to root problems, like a
disconnect between an older generation and a younger generation, or the electoral college silencing people etc., the partisan polarization--most of these things can be connected back.Mark: And when we looked at gerrymandering, it was the first thing we talked
about, okay--how does that drive us all apart? And it does!Claire: Yes, I mean I just found out I am in the eighteenth district now because
the lines now connect at that Krispy Kreme on Nolensville and Thompson Lane.Mark: So, you could be getting a donut or working y'know and you could walk
across the street and you'd be in another district?Claire: Yes!
Mark: There ya go!
Claire: I live like by Berry Hill and by Woodbine, so it's like kind of a
backwards "L" shape now. (laughs)Mark: And the only reason it is drawn that was is quite simple.
Claire: The demographics there.
Mark: That's exactly right.
Claire: Yes, and there is only one voting place in that area, which I have to go
to tomorrow, it's the community center.Mark: Well, you make sure you vote! (laughs)
Claire: Yes! It will be packed for sure.
Mark: I am probably the only person that actually went to vote three times
before I finally found out where I was supposed to vote. Then I thought I was in a district of Heidi Campbell and I wasn't.Claire: Yeah, I need to--because I got my list in the mail and I recognized most
people on it, but tomorrow--I've heard that a couple people have gone into vote and who they talked about with their friends and family are not on the ballot. So, it is very confusing, I hope I don't run into that tomorrow.Mark: Don't let it discourage you though, make sure you check and ask them "Am I
at the right district?" And usually somebody will help you and say "Yeah you are." I am sorry, I am sorry but you are in my district.Claire: I think I can still vote for Heidi Campbell and Hemmer and all of that,
so I hope! So, like broad terms, what does leadership mean to you? What is your definition?Mark: Well, I think leadership is something that takes a while to develop. I
also think that to try your best, if people know you are trying your best in dealing with issues or in dealing with life or whatever, it doesn't matter, I think that they're going to respect you. And respect is something that is very very important because it's hard to conduct anything from a leadership standpoint if you don't have the respect of the individual, I mean the individuals that you are trying to influence or lead. I think that is important to understand, if you can do that, I believe you can provide some guidance that could be beneficial for everybody concerned. I've done it in school many times, I've taught as--I was on a board of directors at a public charter school in Florida. We were the number one charter school in the state of Florida, the test scores were. We had some brilliant teachers, brilliant teachers, but we insisted that the parents play a role and I was the one that was given the task of talking to the parents. In other words, trying to lead them, when they would have rather been doing something else. I asked them for a simple thing, all I want you to do is take part in your child's education. What days can you give me on each month? If it is one, that is fine, if it is two, three that'd be great. And so, we actually had it where we could give the teacher off, instead of watching the lunchroom or doing this, let them eat separately. They turned it over to the parents of the class, so there would be two parents, maybe three, of each day when the students are out there eating their lunch in the lunchroom, make sure everything went well. Then of course, after about thirty minutes or so, the teacher would show up and take the children back there. That little bitty thing right there meant that we are in it with you. Not only am I asking you, I'm asking you if you would do this for the teacher so they would get a little break during the day. I'd say every teacher ended up with about three or four days where they could get a break, and they were very much appreciative for it. And finally, it became so popular, that it developed into something else where the teacher could maybe meet with several other parents, maybe they were having a problem, maybe we needed some remedial work. So, they would teach the parents how to teach their children.Claire: So, leadership was passed on, taught.
Mark: Yeah, it really was beneficial for them, they did a great job. That was
probably one of the reasons that we had a success of doing so well in the state testing and the national testing that we had. We were very proud of it.Claire: Yeah, when you give teachers a break, they have more time and energy to teach.
Mark: Yeah, they are coming up with new ideas to connect with a student. I think
that is important.Claire: It is. So, leadership can be taught, it needs to be respect as well and
how you earn that respect if very important.Mark: It also can be taught to students and that is what is so interesting about
it. Not to say that I have all the keys on that, but all I will say this is, when you are playing on a baseball team or a basketball team and somebody makes a mistake--if you want to be a leader on that team, you need to go over, pick him up, dust him off and say don't worry about it, you'll get him next time or whatever. To let them know that it is a team, to let them know that it is okay to fail, just keep trying. If they can see that their fellow students are that way, I will guarantee you in five to ten years they will be voting for that person as class president or whatever. They will be friends with them for their entire life.Claire: Yeah, that is a good point. I mean, it's like with the example you gave
with the teachers, you kind of used the same teamwork to partner with three different groups of people to make things easier.Mark: It is important and children are so--they always want to be part of
something. Some of them might not be athletically inclined and some of them maybe no musically inclined. I remember that the one thing that I did when I was kid, I was a good golfer, that's fine, but I wanted to be on the basketball team. Well, I wasn't any good at it! I could shoot free throws but I couldn't get to the free-throw line because I couldn't dribble it down the court! So, in the final analysis of that, they let me be statistician. So, I got to count the rebounds and all of that, and at halftime I was there and the coach would say to get the clipboard and everything in front of him. So, I was a part of it! But I am sure they could've got somebody else to do it, but at least they asked me. That was because of the effort I put forth and tried to be better.Claire: You led yourself to something that even though you're not great at it,
you still learned.Mark: Yeah, it was fun and since that time I've been a basketball fan.
Claire: So how would you characterize your own leadership style?
Mark: Trying to relate, which I think is important if you do that. It is so hard
in this country right now to do that. It used to be that you could do that, everybody went to the same school and now you have groups, you are isolated. It is almost like we have cured the integration problem but yet we haven't done it on a personal level, so we are divided more than we ever had been in a lot of respects. I think that is sad, I think that's sad. That's one thing people need, to relate that they belong. It is not just a racial thing, it is not just an economic thing, it is just that they want to be part of a group. I think that is important and so they don't become part of a bad group, you want to be able to extend the hand of friendship and try to communicate with them a little bit more than what we say is normal because I think a lot of people will discount that and that is a mistake they make. They need to reach out not only to young people but to other people and say, yeah okay, I understand you are having a bad day but let's see what we can do to make it a little better. Y'know--Claire: Yeah, we have things to do.
Mark: Or y'know let's go get a Coke or something like that.
Claire: So, would you say that you have a more of a sympathetic leadership style?
Mark: Empathy.
Claire: Empathy. I think I would say the same for myself.
Mark: I've always been very--I remember when my father said, told me, he says "I
didn't know there was anybody else that could be president of the United States except Franklin Delano Roosevelt." Because he was, he was eight years old when he got elected and the next thing he knew when he was in the pacific fighting. So, he was--I think that was important, empathy is what Franklin Roosevelt gave people in the Great Depression. He was their friend, not just the president, he was their friend. I think that was hard to give them through the radio, but he did it. He did it. His voice oozed out of the crystal set, which I think was important, everybody listened to the president in the United States. Turn it on, turn the radio on, we get to listen to the president tonight, he is speaking to the nation--especially during the Great Depression. I think he spoke to the people about three or four times a year.Claire: Really?
Mark: He didn't over-do it, but he spoke to them three or four times a year
through his broadcast which made them feel they were part of this. Everyone is part of curing the depression. I think that is important that everybody does.Claire: Oh, okay! Yes.
Mark: I feel more isolated from my representatives in politics today, I feel
more isolated over a variety of subjects. The places I don't feel isolated, this school right here. I've got my dean, always giving me feedback and asking me to do this and that, which is great. It would break my heart if I ever thought saying "I don't think I am qualified to teach that, but I will do my best." I will go the extra mile to make sure I get that course done properly.Claire: I know your strengths are that you are a very understand person and you
try to relate to people as you've said.Mark: Even when you don't have your paper in on time? (laughs)
Claire: (laughs) Yes! Especially some of our class and trying to understand
where we are coming from, especially with negotiating across cultures like you said. Do you think you have any specific weaknesses with your leadership?Mark: I think so, I think so. My wife keeps telling me that hope is a
four-letter word, just remember that. Because I do have plenty of hope for everybody, I really do. She is right about one thing, sometimes you can be disappointed. Sometimes you can be disappointed in people. I would have to say that that is the blind spot that I have sometimes. But at the same time, by having hope and being able to say I think we can reach this person or I think we can do this or that, maybe giving them another chance and everything--it has been tenfold the other way. Yeah, there is a weakness there, there is a blind spot. But sometimes you have to expose yourself to that, maybe you have to be disappointed but at the same time--Claire: Sometimes it is good to have hope, but y'know I feel like I struggle
with that too. I am becoming more pessimistic. I know people in our class say all the time "I would love for this to happen! I want--this is great. I want this to happen, I'd love for it." And I'm like, but it is not going to happen so--Mark: Well, it is not going to happen maybe right now but it could happen.
Claire: It could!...
Mark: Could, hope, whatever. I know exactly what you're talking about.
Claire: (laughs) Yeah, especially today with some of our conversations. So,
leaders help to turn ideas into action and empower others, how do you accomplish that in teaching?Mark: I always have a story that I've always remembered. I said if you're going
to run for public office, or if you're going to do something that is important and provide a different outlook, you need to try to do it to the best of your ability. Because most likely it is not going to happen the first time you try. I think that it is important that you don't give up if you fall down, it is important to keep plugging away. If you do that, you will be successful. Is it going to give you monetary reward? No, probably not. But it will give you self-satisfaction of a job well done. Hopefully you don't get discouraged, and I think that is a lot of young people, they get discouraged by that. When I look back at the history that I lived through, I lived through the sixties, I never thought that I would see integration accepted in the South. It was when people were getting lynched and when people were getting murdered, it was happening. Not on maybe a daily basis, but pretty much on a monthly basis and it was a very sad time but it did get better. The only problem I've got is you don't want to go back to that.Claire: Mhm and it feels as if we might be.
Mark: Yeah, that's the scary part. That's why I've told students you don't want
to go back there. I want them to reconsider if they are even thinking about anything like that, violence is no answer and they need to--y'know I come from the South but I also have to recognize my past. I had members of the Ku Klux Klan in my family.Claire: Really?
Mark: Yeah. Most of the family though, back in the forties and fifties, that was
normal in Alabama. It isn't in the 1990s or the early 2000s, but it is something that you realize that, yeah, I was part of that. We feel that, yeah, we love them but at the same time, hey--they shouldn't have done that. But if you keep going forward and you keep letting people know that things have improved, I think it is important that we have made progress. We just haven't made as much progress as we could and therein lies the problem. That not only goes for African Americans and other religious groups, like Catholics or whatever, because the Klan singled them out and Jews. It also goes for women; women have not been treated equally in this country. When I first went to work, they were getting fifty to sixty-five cents on the dollar depending on the state you were in. Now, we are doing pretty good, we are up to eighty cents, but it is still not equal. So, are you ever gonna get there? Yeah, you're gonna get there.Claire: Yeah, I think we can get there. Yes.
Mark: Yeah, it is within reach now. I hope it is within my lifetime.
Claire: Yeah, me too.
Mark: So, you gotta get busy, you gotta get busy because I don't have much time. (laughs)
Claire: (laughs) So do you feel it is important to delegate when you are a leader?
Mark: Yes, but they also have to know that you can do the work.
Claire: Yes.
Mark: They also have to know that you are dedicated enough to do the work and to
be there but yeah, you need to delegate because you can't be there all the time. You gotta be able to delegate something.Claire: Are there any ways you delegate now? Or do you? (laughs)
Mark: In a lot of ways, I do that through my students. To get them to think
about certain things that need to be addressed. I can use that as a learning tool more than anything because if people start thinking outside the box and try to get things done. You'll notice sometimes I go back and forth. I am trying to get them to not only think about what they can do immediately but what they can do in the future. You are not going to be able to solve everything like that (snaps).Claire: No, no. (laughs)
Mark: It is going to take a while. The issue of the homeless issue that we are
talking about in Nashville right now, I think that is important because if you want to be a good community you are going to have to take care of your homeless. But at the same time, the other side as well. We don't want to take care of them because they will flock here. You need to know the attack mode of the other side. But to be a good person, we need to look after our fellow man.Claire: Yes, I agree. How do you measure success and how do you learn from failure?
Mark: You always learn from failure. You learn from failure more than you do
success. You really do. It's the disappointment that maybe hits you more than anything, but at the same time, success you know you are on the right track, but at the same time you take what you learn when you fail and apply it. It seems that it sticks with you longer. If success is too easy, it doesn't stick with you and then-- "I've never lost in anything!" Well yeah you have, everybody has lost in something. You need to be able to address that because otherwise you don't want somebody that is a petulant child about losing all the time. So, yeah, I think--I would definitely say beyond a shadow of a doubt, you'll learn more by failing and you'll be a better person as a result of that and how you treat losses. I don't want the person that jumps up and down and starts to scream and everything, says "This wasn't right!" Y'know, kinda like our election process.Claire: Yes, we don't want them as leaders but--(laughs)
Mark: I would rather have the person that walks across and shakes hands with
them and says "Congratulations" on their victory, you did a good job and all of that and leave it at that. Then in the next two years or four years, run if they want to, that's the way it is supposed to be! So, we will see.Claire: We'll see! What are two or three actions steps you believe are essential
to enable others to be successful?Mark: Empathy, when they fail. I think that is important to be able to
understand. Hello! Good! You need to have empathy toward those people and if you can do that, you can draw them out and give them the opportunity to succeed at something. It doesn't necessarily have to be a big thing but encouragement goes a long way. If you do encourage people, it makes you feel good too. I've seen you in class, you give a lot of encouragement to your fellow students.Claire: I try! (laughs)
Mark: You do! And you do a good job and you are not forceful about it, but you
are there, "I'm there to help you." And that is what is good.Claire: Thank you! So, encouragement, empathy--those are really good ones. I see
you doing that in our classes very often.Mark: I try to!
Claire: I mean even sometimes when we are late with some of the stuff and you
are like "But like why?" instead of just like "Aw never mind! I am just gonna count off." Y'know? You try to understand what happened.Mark: I remember my professors at Florida State, before I got the door slammed
in my face for being late, they would always say you need to know the time and you need to be able to do this--well that only goes so far when you have run across campus. I think this probably happened with you or somebody else in our class when you come in half out of breath and everything. That happened to me! I swore I would never do that and let the student explain themselves. But you still have to explain yourself!Claire: Yes! You do, you can't just be like--I don't know!
Mark: Or I forgot!
Claire: Yeah, I forgot.
Mark: That's not good enough. Let's try another avenue (laughs).
Claire: Yes, why did you forget? So, do you have any advice for building
relationships and trust in an organization?Mark: I think as long as you've got someone's back, not necessarily on anything
illegal like that, I am just talking about look, your wife's pregnant, you gotta take her to the doctor or something--you go ahead, I'll cover your class for you, that type of thing. I think that goes a long way of helping somebody else out. It doesn't have to be necessarily a class, or I've got a student that is coming in just a few minutes and I need to talk to that student, but I've got to go on this emergency or whatever, as long as you stick around and do that for them, people appreciate that you go the extra mile for them. Just do what you say you are going to do. Don't sit there you are going to do something and don't do it.Claire: Follow through and support.
Mark: Yes, you definitely want to do that. I think that it's important that
everybody understands.Claire: Yeah, I agree. I think we could use more of both of those currently. So,
lastly, what do you want your legacy to be?Mark: I want to be in twenty-five or thirty years, or whenever you're back here
for your reunion, I want my students to say "Do you remember old Mr. Lane? The way he taught and everything." I want them to be happy that they had my class and remember certain things that will make them better citizens. If I can do that, then I am successful.Claire: If it is any consolation, I already know a lot of people who say "Oh
have you taken Mark Lane's class?" Or I even say "He is my favorite professor!"Mark: I thank you very much, you are very kind to say that.
Claire: A lot of people love your classes and love your attitude.
Mark: Well sometimes, I am not sure 100% but it means a lot that I am reaching
some students. That is what matters. And yeah, I would feel successful if they would talk fondly of me in the future.Claire: You are! You are successful. I have had people who have graduated who
still would recommend.Mark: No kidding! Well, they haven't forgotten me yet! (laughs)
Claire: No! No! Do you have any questions for me before we wrap up?
Mark: Well, y'know you as a student are fantastic. You really are. You always
are thinking and that is what is so interesting when I always come over there to ask you a question, I know what I am going to get, I am going to get an answer. I might not necessarily agree with it, but I know that you are going to address it. I think that that is wonderful and you know that the way I teach, I teach the Socratic method, that is the best way to teach. I go to the old master! I think it is important for you to know that, it is a planned teaching method. I could sit there and say you need to know this, this, this, this, here's the bullets to go along with this and I give you that, read your syllabus and you'll be fine. You never know what you are get when you walk in my class, and that is the way I want to keep it!Claire: Yes! We love it that way. (laughs) You're like, remember what we talked
about the other day? We're gonna do that again, differently and we are like okay! This video and audio will be uploaded to what you've read about, the OHMS project sponsored by the University of Kentucky. Thank you for meeting with me today, I really learned a lot.Mark: You're welcome!
Claire: Thank you!
Mark: Thank you!
Claire: I appreciate your answers and your willingness to participate, so thank you.
Mark: Good, good, I hope it goes well!
