Interview of Natalie Phelps-Finnie, November 10, 2022

Katrina Roberts: Would you like to begin by introducing yourself?

Natalie Phelps-Finnie: Sure, I'd love to I'm Natalie, I go by Phelps-Finnie. Phelps is my maiden name. I am a wife of 23 years, a mother of 3 children. I am the Deputy Director of the Department of Natural Resources (which going forward, I will refer to as IDNR) I have been there since August of 21' so a little over a year. My original background is as a nurse, I was a nurse practitioner for 11 years. Mostly in primary care, and now I am out of health care. We'll get into that later!

Katrina Roberts: Thank you! So, you talked about your background as a nurse, and your journey to where you are at today, so the next question is what part of your background lead you to your current position, and why?

Natalie Phelps-Finnie: My family, my dad was a schoolteacher (that's how he started his career) and him and his brothers are gospel singers, so they were very well respected in the community. They were involved politically in a grass-roots level and a couple of them were priests and community men, my uncle Larry was on the board of Democratic chairs in our county. Eventually, my dad was approached to be appointed to the county clerk position. One gentleman had passed away while serving, and his brother had taken over for him and he was not having it so they had to find a replacement. The people and the party came up with my dad as kind of a leader of a gospel quartet and well-loved teacher. People really respected him and thought he would be a good servant in the community, so my dad agreed to be appointed. He finished out that year and a half and then ran for re-election as county clerk and held that position for another 4 years. In about 1984 he decided to run for state rep, the state party came to him because there were some really bad things happening at the time (not that republicans are bad) but in our area there was some job selling going on and it was a really bad situation. They came to him and said, "you are very well-liked, win this election." A democrat hadn't won in decades in our neck of the woods, but my dad said, "I think I can do it, I'm ready to take the next step". It was kind of a natural progression for my dad, he was very good with people and a public servant and enjoyed that. He ran for state rep, and beat the guy badly, he really did a great job, and he served for 14 years as state rep. He ran every 2 years, so he won 7 elections, successful in all of those. And then in 1998 (at this time I'm 2 years out of high school) My dad was approached about his good friend who was a congressman who was going to run for governor of the state of Illinois, said "Dave, I think you need to run for congress". And my dad long story short ended up running for congress, and he wins. So, he serves 2 years in the United States Congress in the US house of representatives.

I say all that, I give that history to explain that that was my childhood. Campaigning, knocking on doors since I was big enough to walk, phone-polling when I was big enough to pick up a phone and know how to say, "Hello how are you doing this evening, this is Natalie Phelps, I am the daughter of Dave Phelps, calling to ask for your vote" once I was old enough for words, I was phone banking leading up to elections. So, election nights for me (like this last Tuesday night) these are weird days. I wasn't that involved this year, I was home on my couch instead of being at some campaign celebrating or being sad because of a loss, so it is very engrained. And because of that, I was serving as a nurse practitioner, and the guy who left a seat in 2017 (my cousin Brandon who had stepped in for another gentleman who took over after my dad) he had served for 15 years, and he wanted out. He quit, and they wanted to appoint someone, and they came to me. I don't know why they came to me, this was not on my list of things to do. I originally said "no", they went and asked a couple other people, but then came back to me and said, "we really want you to do this". I prayed for about 5-6 weeks, my husband and I talked and counseled with each other the pros and cons, what this would mean for our family. This is not an easy thing to do to step into public office, it's very difficult, and I knew firsthand seeing my dad and what it put my family through and the horrors of all that. It's worse now than it ever has been. What ultimately led me to serve, was that my clinic was attached to a k-12 school and I saw unbelievable amounts of child abuse and neglect. The poverty amounts are out of control in our area, we have been so disenfranchised and disinvestments through the years, it had been terrible. I finally looked at my husband and I said, this is all about me being selfish because I don't want it to affect my life, cause we had a happy family and I wanted to do what I want to do, when I want to do it. I don't want to have to do all of this. But I realized how selfish that was, and I thought "how can I look those little kids in the eye, when maybe, maybe as a state rep I can introduce some legislation, do something to change DCFS, do something to really help these children with their life". Yet I was saying no because I didn't want to inconvenience my little, perfect life. It was so incredibly selfish. I finally just had this "I've been called to serve" moment. So, it was a very long road, but I ended up accepting it. I was appointed on September 6th of 2017. I was the first woman to serve in the 118th district, more importantly, I was the first nurse who ever served in the Illinois state house in the general assembly. Two huge firsts, for the 118th and for the state legislature, so that was pretty cool. I served from 2017 in September until January in 2019. I lost the 2019 election running as a democrat, so it was tough. Found myself back in the clinic, I was part time in the clinic while I served. I loved the clinic and my patients, doing all that, but I thought, "man I miss the legislative process, I miss negotiating deals, I missed the personalities" because going back to the state legislature, there's still people there who were serving with my dad, it was like going home in a way. People would see me and say, "oh my goodness, you're Dave Phelps's little girl, you're a grown woman now", It felt so good. There are so many great people in government. I think that is what is so sad about what we see on TV. We see all the ugly, but there are so many wonderful people serving in state government and federal government and we just don't see that. For me it was like going home, I missed the process. So, I opened my own consulting firm and was doing some work for children's advocacy centers in Illinois which is like child abuse forensics interview group who advocates for children in severe abuse situations (mostly sexual abuse) and also doing some work for my nurse association. So I was doing some work on consulting and lobbying and planning on transferring out of the clinic eventually to work on these policies. Then I got a phone call in July of 21' by a former state senator who had become the deputy governor after JB Pritzker, and he asked me if I would join IDNR because he was a part of IDNR and said he had some problems there and needed somebody he could trust and who is ethical, and I was like, "well I'm in health care you know".

Katrina Roberts: Thank you for sharing, that's awesome.

Natalie Phelps-Finnie: It's a lot, I know.

Katrina Roberts: Well kind of going off of that, this is an interview on leadership, it is a profile on leadership and leadership styles. The next question is, what experience shaped you as a leader? You kind of got into that a little bit, but there is that. And then, has there been one person or certain people who have made a big impact on shaping you as a leader?

Natalie Phelps-Finnie: Yes, so many people. I think experiences that have shaped me as a leader, the experience of watching my dad lead. Seeing that he was the same person at home as he was when we were out, that there wasn't a falseness about him. I mean, we're all human, we all vent or say things we shouldn't. He is not a perfect person, I don't mean t say that, but he is real and he is genuine. I mean he really cared about people. He always had our phone number listed, and people would call us at all hours of the night for all kinds of problems, even plumbing problems where it's like, "I'm your state rep. what do you want me to do" but dad would talk to them and say "well let me see if I can get you a plumber". Whatever the need, my dad would take the time. Now, it took him away from us a lot, but he cared about the people. And I don't think there's anything on this earth that can do more for a child than seeing their parents live out what they claim to be. And for us, that's our Christian values, our Christian faith and who God has called us to be. I mean we believe in servant leadership because Jesus Christ was the ultimate servant leader. He laid down his life for those who were so unworthy, because of his love, because he wanted to serve. So we're going to fall short of that, but that is at the basis of everything that we try to do is everything we try to do is to glorify God. Even in our failings and our shortcomings you know, the Lord loves us and we're thankful for that. I just think you know my life as a Christian and watching my families as a whole, my mom, my dad, especially my dad and his difficult role, all of our family. My uncle was a principle and superintendent and watching how difficult it was for them to navigate parents and school boards and all those things that they did, they did it with integrity, they did it with humility, they did it with love. Really awful things that they suffered through at the hands of people, you know just being people being people, and they didn't always handle things perfectly, but they handled it with great with great strides and professionalism. I don't think you can teach that. I've been through all the leadership training in the world. I've been through leadership training when I was with the pharmaceutical company, and when I was in government, and yeah there's some great little nuggets and things you can learn, but having it taught from your home, through your childhood, all the way through is where it's at. And you don't have to be you don't have to be a state rep. to show leadership. Even in our own church, it's not about taking charge and doing those things, it's about making tough decisions, making the unpopular decisions because you know that you can on your convictions. You know it's the right thing to do. That's leadership. And then willing to do the things that nobody else wanted to do. My dad, I remember seeing a fundraiser, we have pictures of him sweeping the floors. They didn't expect his campaign staff to do the grunt work. He would haul chairs and pick up and sweep and mop because he's a servant leader. Because of that, the people who followed him would follow him off a cliff, and the same was true for me. I'm not bragging myself but my nurse and receptionist people that I left in my own clinic, I think they would have followed me over a cliff, I wouldn't have taken them over, but because I would go scrub the toilets and I would take out the trash and I would, you know, I'm a practitioner, I didn't have to do those things out of my job description. But it was the right thing to do, the need was there, and I saw so. If the toilet needed to be cleaned, it was nasty, I needed to do that and not expect someone else to do it.

Katrina Roberts: That's amazing. Thank you, very cool! We'll move on to another question. Have you learned from any obstacles or challenges from your life or in your career, either personal or business related?

Natalie Phelps-Finnie: My first challenge, I almost died when I was seven from bacterial meningitis. I don't remember much of it, I was so sick, I was nearly comatose and kidney failure, hallucinations, and all of that, but I remember quite well when I came out of that, realizing how scared my mom was. How sick I had been, and doctors telling me, "You're one lucky little girl". I just remember having this I just feeling like, I have my dad's personality, that drive, but I think because of my sickness and near-death experience I have maybe, I hate to say "a better appreciation for life" but just a zeal for life I guess, and I just don't want to waste my life. So, I guess that's why I was crazy enough to accept being State Rep. and saying, "sure I'll do it!" after some reluctancy, because I just think if something's presented to me, and it is something I could do, the Lord hasn't put up a barrier, and I pray about it, I should say, "why not! Let's jump in and just try and do it." Because I don't know what the Lord might be asking me to do, and sometimes these opportunities are asking us to go down the road, and we follow and try to listen the best we can. So that that's one thing I think that really has shaped me. That experience.

The other thing is loss. I have never, and I'm not bragging, but I had never lost anything. I had won every election in school. I was you know like homecoming queen, not that I requested, but my peers elected me to do that because I was loving and kind to everyone. I had never lost anything. To lose the election, I knew it was going to be tough because our area turned very republican during the Trump era, but it was tough to lose because when I saw the numbers come in from my hometown, it was it was gut wrenching to think people that I've got church with, that I went to school with, clearly did not vote for me. It wasn't just like other counties; it was my own home county. I was thinking back to scripture and that Jesus says a "prophet is not one of his own home" basically. I'm paraphrasing, but you know people don't want you. That was tough, but those things build character and make you tougher and stronger. I finally had to realize, one epiphany I had was when I was in a vaccine clinic giving shots and a guy I've known forever, I went to school with this his two kids, and we're giving shot here. I said, "roll up your sleeve I'll give you the COVID vaccine" and he said, "aren't you glad you didn't win State Rep." and I said "Well, personally, for my family yes. But I have a lot of things I want to work on and think I was doing some good, and you know that's disappointing." He said, "yeah that's why I didn't vote for you, you need to be home with your kiddos". I shouldn't take it personally, because he felt comfortable to tell me that he didn't think voting against me was anything bad. He thought he was doing me a service and helping me. People think about things and do things they have different motives sometimes. So that was I guess a good thing, but also tells you a lot of other things that I won't get into about being a woman. So there have been things like throughout my life. There's definitely been challenges and things, but any difficulty this coming year of life. I tell my kids this, "whatever disappointment, you're never going to get better. I always love to take your pain away from you, but I can't. Even though I want to, I wouldn't. Because without that pain, without the disappointment, you never can really appreciate the high moments of your life. You can never really get to that deep place where you need to be to be stronger, with that grit to carry on."

Katrina Roberts: Very wise words, I'll take note of, those are great. Again, thank you for sharing, I appreciate it. Another question: what are your professional strengths as well as your professional weaknesses, and how do you think that factors into your leadership style and how you work with the people around?

Natalie Phelps-Finnie: My day to day at my job, I am one of the deputy directors, there's four of us in the administrator's office. The director, we have an assistant director, me, the deputy director, and chief of staff. We run the agency of 1200 people. That's a lot, you know. I've been blessed with a lot of skills that are helpful, and again, a lot of that's just been my upbringing and all the things I was exposed to as a child. You know, talking to people and doing political debates very young. Sometimes I would have to stand up for my dad and give a speech when I was in high school or college. I mean I've been all over and done speeches. You know I was pushed into doing a lot of things, and I'm glad to do them. Things sometimes that were uncomfortable, or made me nervous, but they really built my skill level. It is great in the position I'm in now, because running an agency like DNR we do everything. From running state parks and historic sites, we have the SHPO (which is the state historic preservation office) which handles all of the federal regulation for historic renovation, whether it's private or federal. Whoever is doing renovations. We have the mines, so all of the oil and gas, the rock quarries, all of those regulations. We also have our OLC which is resource conservation. All of our biologists, our natural heritage folks, so all the plants, and all of our botanist, and it's just amazing people. Our ORCP is the Office of Realty and Capital Planning, we have architects and engineers, and they do all of the big capital projects. We have our legal human resources fiscal office, I'm leaving out some, but it is the breadth and depth of what we do in the IDNR is extensive. So, my skill set, the main thing that I do, I oversee the folks who supervise our state parks and historic sites. I also oversee the departments of mines and minerals, and oil and gas, and then also the legislative branch. Being a former legislator, my experience there, I oversee our legislative director and all that they do. We're going into veto session next week so I'm going to be up to my eyeballs here with sessions in Springfield all week trying to get some of our bills pushed through. So, my best skill, my biggest strength is being able to listen to people. Being in a room, especially when there's a difficult situation going on, I'm a good broker. I listen to both sides, and if I can tell it was communication, something's not quite getting through, I can stop and shut down conversation and say "hang on guys, I understand this is very stressful". I had to do this last week with a fiscal nightmare in budget season, I had to stop several meetings and say, "Everybody stop just second. OK let's pull back here, take some deep breaths. It's very stressful, that was very difficult what we're asking you to do, however, we're all one team. We all need to push in the same direction. I understand that change is not easy. I understand this is going to be difficult and may not be exactly what you wanted. The structure is coming from a higher level, and this is what we've been asked to do, and this is what we are going to do. We have to make this happen, and let's make it happen the best you can for the better of our agency. Can we do that? Now we can do that. OK, so let's take personalities. I know this person may not have the best personality, but we've got to be professional. We've got to mind your tongue and put ourselves last." So, I'm teaching people how to be servant leaders. Put yourself last, let's do this for the greater good. That's my greatest skill I think, it's just being that negotiator and broker. That's what I do all day every day, no matter what the situation. My weakness is that I think I lack confidence a lot of times. A lot of times, you're going into a meeting and you're in there with I'm sure engineers and architects, and attorneys or chief legal counsel, and I've had a lot of meetings with our governor. You talk about nerve wracking; you're going in and he is a sharp cookie and I've got to go in and do a presentation with our governor in a room that is where you can feel very little. I think that's my own worst enemy sometimes. I really have to tell myself, "Look, who are you trying to impress. You're just trying the best you can with what God gave you. Go in there and be you, be Natalie, the person God made you to be." That gets me through, and not because of me you know. I've been successful and I and I think all that boils down to is that people can see at the end of the day, that I'm genuine and I'm sincere. I think for me, and I'm not just saying that because I think that people have told me that "I appreciate your approach to things, I can just tell you really care, you're not trying to fluff up, just really shooting us straight. You're being transparent, and you're sincere". There's nothing more I could ask for people to see me as.

Katrina Roberts: That's amazing. I know you have a meeting at 1:30, so we'll just do two more questions so we can wrap it up and get you to that. You kind of touched on this within the way you work with other people with your strengths and weaknesses, but another question would be, what advice do you have for building relationships and trust in an organization and with the people that you work with?

Natalie Phelps-Finnie: It's as simple as the golden rule. "Do unto others" right. It's that simple. Treat people how you want to be treated. I don't coddle people; I shoot people straight. I tell them tough truths. Sometimes you have to wait until you know a person a little better to kind of tell them some things that might be hard. You can't just go in guns ablaze and you get there's a way to do things and appropriate time. I think you're transparent with people. You're honest, transparent, you let them know that you don't think you're too good to do anything. Let them know that I'm just a normal Joe. I know I'm basically a nobody. I'm nobody special, and nobody's more important than next person. That's the best way I know to build relationships.

Katrina Roberts: That's awesome. Very good advice! We're going to do one more question, which is very broad, so you can say as much or as little as you want. Whatever you leave behind, what do you want your legacy to be?

Natalie Phelps-Finnie: I kind of touched on it already. One day, I get emotional sometimes so apologize. One day, when I'm long gone, if people look back and ever remember my name, I don't really care about them knowing who I was. I want them to point to Jesus. I want them to be able to say, "That's a lady who loved the Lord." Especially if there's somebody who doesn't have a relationship with Jesus, somebody doesn't know the Lord, I want that to be the lingering thought for them. And maybe, one day, the reason why they look deeper and say "Who is this Jesus?" Because I want them to be able to look at me and say, "Why did she have such conviction?" Not that I'm perfect. "Why did she love like she did?" or "Why did she have such excitement for what she did? And she says it's because of this relationship with Jesus, I just don't if I buy all that, but man, she had something real." That, man, what a legacy to leave. Not because of what I've done, but to point to Him and to what He has done. How wonderful the Lord is, and how we are nothing without Him. If we let him live through us, even in our weakest moments and failures. We just allow Him to fix our messes because we are going to screw it up! If we just hand it to Him, He does amazing things. I want that to be my legacy, is to shine to Him. We sing that song "Only Jesus". I don't want to leave a legacy; I want it to point to him. And you know for my children, I want my children to remember me with fondness, but that is the most important thing I want them to remember me for is my love for the Lord. To know that it was real and sincere, and that I loved the Lord. I want them to have that same relationship, and I want them to love people and to be servant leaders and to help and do amazing things. You know my grandpa was a janitor at a local bank, my grandma was a stay-at-home mom. And They had the biggest influence on my life outside of my own parents, because of their faith and the way they lived life. They were nobodies but had the biggest influence. They hardly ever left Eldorado, little town of 5,000 people, but they had a huge influence over our community because of the way they loved the Lord and loved people. My grandma would write everybody a card, and people still come up to me. She has been gone since 1992, my 8th grade year is when she died, and I was devastated, she was like my mother. People still come to me, and they say, "I still have this card that your grandmother sent me when so and so died. She barely even knew me, but she sent me a card and told me how much she cared, she was praying, and that God loved me." And I think, "man, what a legacy." To live for people. She didn't want a legacy, she just cared for people. Every morning when she prayed, she would have her cards. I'll never reach that level in life, but I hope that whatever I do is even half as impactful.

Katrina Roberts: Well, I can tell you right now, you do an amazing job of living that out and demonstrating God's love. That is all of the questions that I have for you, so thank you for taking the time to answer them.