Interview of Barry Coburn

Ambrozy: What made you choose a career in the music industry?

Coburn: Well I was fortunate in that my father was a big band leader and I had a dance band and this was during the 60s and so as a kid I grew up with him writing arrangements the sound of the him at the piano going you know and then trying it in the key of E flat and the key of B flat so that he could write the parts for saxophone and trombone and trumpet. He also had a radio program on radio New Zealand and so I could go to the recording sessions as a kid and just watch it all go down with the people putting up the microphones to capture the best sound of the piano or the drums or whatever, so I was fortunate that I had that at a really early age.

Coburn: And then unfortunately he died of diabetic complications when I was 14 and he was 46. Life got stripped away but I had just come desire to know more about music, and as time went on, I would annoy the girls and the record stores around Christchurch, the city I was raised, and always asking questions and passionate about music and then I started subscribing to English music magazines.

Coburn: There was one in particular called Melody Maker that was famous for having great critiques who would, you know, critique albums. From there I would place orders with a record store in London, who was in _ to me and by the time they got here it was a few weeks later but I got them still in advance of them being released down there. And then I would listen to radio stations, and I strung big wires over the ceiling of my parents' house so I could pick up Australian radio stations from Sydney who were moving a little further ahead than New Zealand was, 'cause in those days everything moved- it wasn't, we didn't have the web and we didn't have you know it happening all internationally at the same time. so, I got to just try and stay in touch with things and then fortunately it just sort of introduced me to things very very early.

Ambrozy: That sounds like a great story, honestly, how you got in with your father and then was able to carry what you learned from when you were young all the way to now.

Coburn: Yeah, I mean I was fortunate in that when I mean I didn't go to college, you know, my family couldn't afford to put me through college, or university as it was known there, and so from my father died, you know, I left home and joined a rock'n'roll band when I was 17. I moved to another city to play keyboards in a rock band and the band had a record deal and so I got to see the other side by going to a bigger city and seeing that there were music publishing companies associated with the record company that the band was signed with. When I saw that there were booking agents, there were managers, and there were promoters have promoted the shows that we played at and I suddenly saw this whole other world and I realized pretty quickly that I didn't think I was a great musician.

Coburn: The band that I've joined were much older than I was, I was 17 and they were 21, 23 and 26 the other guys, but it gave me this great intro and when my mother got sick shortly afterwards I went back to my hometown and started pursuing, you know, some sort of career, and fortunately within a few months, a few weeks, I'd got a job at a record company as a salesman travelling. I mean they gave me a company car just before I turned 18 and I drove around New Zealand selling records to record stores all around, initially the South Island and then in the North Island, and, you know, so big so stretched out country and then I moved to the biggest city in New Zealand, Auckland, in the north, and was working for record companies and then I was allowed to start producing records and the time I was 19 I had my own label within the company.

Coburn: As you know producing the rock and pop records that because the company had been viewed as a sort of really more involved and some country music and then they used to release a lot of local country music and do cover versions of songs that they were the publishers for down there. And then I got to sign some of the acts that I liked a lot and produced those records and that led me to the record company being aware of me and then, you know, two of the company sort of asked me that produce records at the same time so I left and became an independent sort of producer when I was 20 years old.

Coburn: Well, you know, I sort of went into business, I guess, on my own accord and then I didn't really work for anybody for the next 15 years or longer. I'm in the next 20 years of my life I was working -- music publisher and it wasn't till I moved to Nashville that I became. So, I was invited to be the head of Atlantic records and that was the only other time I worked for anybody else. The rest of the time I've sort of been a just rebellious independent I guess

Ambrozy: That's a long journey.

Coburn: I mean there was a lot of stuff that went on in between, you know, I was fortunate when I was 21 that an Australian concert promoter wanted to stage a tour in New Zealand and I got introduced as a possible sort of tour manager for the tour, and so I did that and helped them promote the tour and it was very successful. Then I did some other tours for him and then then he said he wanted to expand, and I said that I would only do it if I was a partner based on some recommendations I got from a couple of the record labels. And so, the first leg tour I succeeded in getting for us, he came back from Australia one day to New Zealand and said I just heard that Elton John is going to tour in New Zealand, wouldn't it be great if we could do a concert with Elton John. So, I knew a disc jockey a radio station that was it was a sort of a new independent radio station, and I knew that disk jockey had a friend who had been the best man at his wedding this guy was from England, and I knew that he was signed with the same record company as Elton John was, so I called him and asked him if he could introduce me.

Coburn: He said, oh well Phillip already knows about you, so I called him on the phone, called him in London, and said that Phillip and he said oh yeah, I know who you are Barry Marx told me about you know is he playing my records on his radio station, I was like yeah, he is. So, I said look I'm trying to make contact with Elton John's manager because I would like to try and see if I can get him to come to New Zealand, and he said he just walked by my office let me go and see if I can find him. And he literally came back, and he said Barry this is John Reed, John Reed this is Barry and he left us to it and, you know, within about a week or 10 days I'd arranged for Elton John to come to New Zealand and that was the first big rock concert I staged with my partner, and we did Elton John, I was 21. I didn't know any better I just didn't know any better I just walked into things and worked out how to get a sound system and from Australia big sound system that I needed to play outdoors; we sold 14,000 tickets. It was a huge success.

Coburn: When I learned as I went, I, again, then I started getting more people from England in the US-

Siri (from phone): one moment I didn't get that could you try again?

Coburn: Siri can you run away and play games with somebody else, thank you.

Coburn: So yeah, so it was just sort of fortunate that- sorry Siri sorry you have to go away I guess you heard me say Siri

Coburn: and the yeah so that was really the beginning of promoting big tours and then I started getting people from the US and you know a lot of big acts and then 1972 Led Zeppelin's manager caught me and he said that John Reed had told him that I did a great job with Elton, would I take a show with Led Zeppelin so when I was 22 I did Led Zeppelin and sold out 28,000 seats at a big Speedway stadium and that would be sort of really sort of firmly implanted and then after that I asked Led Zeppelin who the best to let the best concert promoter in the world was and they told me it was a guy in Japan called Tats Nagashima and I asked if they could introduce me too him and they're their manager Peter Grant called him right on the spot and just and said you know friend Barry who's got us playing in New Zealand like I told him that you were the best concert promoter and he'd like to come and visit you and he said when's -- to come between this date and this date you can go on tour with us and it was with two English bands started 10 years after and procol harum.

Coburn: And so I got to go to six concerts in really big venues in Japan and just see how they operated. Then I went to England and was looking for artists to come down and work to tour for us and I got Black Sabbath and they were Image by Sharon Osborn's father and Sharon then she was about 19 or 20 and I was 22 and she worked for her dad and so I got Black Sabbath but the only way he would let me have Black Sabbath was if I took Australia as well ,so in 1973 I moved into Australia and started promoting concerts there and so I didn't fourteen shows with Black Sabbath.

Coburn: and then I split with my partner at that point and went out on my own after that and started promoting in Australia and New Zealand and sort of got to do a large number of different artists and then sort of just got it got some bigger and I did sort of Neil Diamond and then I did I got the Eagles I did the first shows with the Eagles after they made hotel California the first concerts they ever played were for me in Australia and New Zealand when Joe Walsh joined the band. And then it just sort of continued from there with sort of endless big concert tours and managing artists and I sort of gradually I think built up a network of people across the world that gave me a sort of a, like, just a large range of contacts and I managed to band called Split Ends who are now Crowded House and got them a record deal in England and they started to break big in Europe at the time and so I was sort of just jumping everywhere. I was young and wonderfully sort of crazy and ambitious and willing to just try anything you know I didn't I mean I know I made lots of mistakes, but you sort of don't really learn from just everything going gloriously for you, I'm sure you've already known that. And I think it was just I was fortunate that I was there when rock music and big outdoor concerts and everything were just starting to really happen and the festivals in the US here, you know Woodstock and then in the following years there were big rock festivals and I got to go come over and go to a lot of those and just study what was right and what was wrong about them, and through learning I mean meeting other concert promoters here as frequently an artist would start in England and then go to Japan then come to Australia then New Zealand and then go on and play Hawaii and then and then head back home to England so I was sort of became part of that network of people and through that became connected with concert promoters and agents who booked the acts and the artists managers, and so I think that really helped me over the years.

Coburn: Then so you know when I wanted to sort of, you're always everyone's always looking for the greener grass and the greener grass is always over there somewhere if you live in Ohio you know the greener grasses and you know Chicago you want to you know promote shows in Chicago or something, and then then you want to move into other places and if you're an artist manager and you're trying to break your band that you really believe in, it's great if you can break a band in the Midwest or whatever and you live in Louisville you want to break into Cincinnati and then into Cleveland and then into Nashville then into Chattanooga and you know and you just keep spreading and which is that that long tried formula and then eventually you band gets noticed and they start to build a following and they recorded better music and then it all starts to explode for you and if you're doing it right and they're great well then you don't know what's going to happen but it it's you know if you're an artist manager you only succeed if they succeed and if you know and then off it goes it's just sort of like the best way you can make it happen it's just to meet you know and then hopefully surround yourself with smarter the people as you go in my belief in the last 20 years or more has just been so have young -- they can learn from what I do and they -- I don't want to I mean there's other people that can do great so over the years I think I've surrounded myself with young smart people that that I think are the difference makers that's sort of my approach.

Ambrozy: Yeah, so how did you go from doing all like the concert promotions and the managing and stuff to now being the president of Ten Ten Music Group?

Coburn: Well in 1984 I was going to get married to a girl in Australia who had had some success in the US as an actress and as an artist and she and I got married and, you know, I was at before I met her was thinking about moving to either London, New York, Raleigh and then when she and I met we looked again and she sort of added, well I don't want to live in LA cause I lived there when I was in those TV series and stuff, but I had already, I had never done much country music touring. I'd had taken Charlie Pride to Australia and Roger Miller and then I've done Emmylou Harris was the last artist I toured down there and she was sort of had been such a part of, I guess, the sort of California country scene which then became country Rock, you know, with The Birds and Grand Pass and all of these things and so we looked at Nashville and looked at Austin, Texas as well at the time, but Austin didn't really have a music business structure.

Coburn: It was a great live music town, but there really weren't a lot of great new things going on, but Nashville had it, but it was a question would they accept outsiders, you know, we decided to just move here and try it and see what happened so we got married and arrived in Nashville three days later with them with two suitcases each and a box of tapes of the songwriters and the music that we liked and we thought we'd see if it would work and if it didn't work we hadn't really lost anything we could always go back you know. Fortunately, EmmyLou Harris really helped me. Within three months she had introduced me to another artist called Lacey J Dalton who at the time was sort of really big in country and so she was known as sort of a Janis Joplin type artist and country she was so rebellious and lived in Santa Cruz, California and EmmyLou introduced me to her and she was interviewing people to be she wanted to move and change management and fortunately I got it and then I asked EmmyLou's manager if he would come in and Co manage with me and he sort of said well I'll only do it if we just merge our businesses together.

Coburn: So, we ended up having a company that managed- Ten Ten Management was formed and we managed EmmyLou and Lacy J Dolton and then we signed Marty Stewart and got him his first record deal and so that was really the way that Ten Ten was formed. And we did well for a few years and then my partner Eddie decided he wanted to move to Tucson, AZ where his wife was from and so we broke that up, but in the meantime I was looking at other newer artists and with the success I was having someone came to me and introduced me to Alan Jackson and I signed him in 1988 and he was nobody but I spent sort of 18 months focusing on getting him his songwriting to be better and for him to create a body of better songs and then we signed him in 1989 we signed him to Arista records as their first country act and then it all explode at the end of '89 and in 1990 it really exploded and I used a lot of my sort of rock contacts as well but that broke really big and by the end of 1990 is first album we were way over 1,000,000 units and then that sort of took off and for the next few years we worked together and I think in the six years we were together we sold 19 million albums -- million albums and then so and through that time I was initially starting to develop Keith Urban who we knew from Australia and he was still living in Australia and coming and going and then I sort of just then started building other things as well as Alan and then Alan left and I had other acts so that did really well, Diamond Rio and I had a sort of an alternative rock country band called BR549 and through my rock connections I got the amount touring with the Black Crows and then with Bob Dylan and we did 46 shows with Bob Dylan and so that that took off.

Coburn: Then Atlantic Records was looking for someone to run their operation here to replace someone else and they kept sort of coming to me and I kept saying no I didn't want to work for anybody I didn't want to do that eventually they convinced me to do it and so I left Ten Ten and my then wife continued operating it, and I went away and ran Atlantic Records for three years and you know I didn't really, I mean I had a good time ,it was a great experience to see it all from the other side to add to the fact that you know it's sort of been a manager and a concert promoter and then we'd started our own agency earlier on so we had the booking agency which Alan Jackson became a partner in and when he and I separated we stayed in business together running the agency with another partner who was an agent, and eventually we sold that to CAA and I just continued with that business and got more deeply engrossed in publishing and -- Keith Urban of course took off and we had him working with us for 13 years and it took 6 years to break him for us and we had a lot of money invested but all of the development really paid off and we had a great run together and we still have a great a great relationship I do with him, and I get to see him and I'm really happy really happy and really proud of what he's achieved.

Coburn: So, it was sort of you know and there's a lot of obviously a lot of twists and turns throughout all but for me now it's really down to when I look at it it's like you know why do you do certain things and it to me it's always been magic in the music still is it's there's nothing different if you've got magic in the music and it's up to you to see if the people like it and I think it's different now in so many ways but I still am wildly enthusiastic every morning -- why is that song in my head? What's it got, you know, could be anything you know but it's all that song stay with me. I mean sometimes it's not a song I'm involved in frequently it is because I've probably listened to it before I went to bed so it's ingrained and it's working on my brain you know and my subconscious so when I wake up in the morning it's like OK what can I do to that song or that songwriter or that artist and I can't get him to a few million more people how do I do that? And then it's like, you know, off I go again but that's something that again it just comes down I think to being passionate about what you want to do and I'm sure you're going to have other questions, so I'll stop talking there.

Ambrozy: I know that with everything you've done and especially now being the president of Ten Ten music, how would you define leadership?

Coburn: well I think I mean I think when you sane is the leader and there there's a is a great book by a guy called Benjamin Hardy and he's a sort of a I guess you could call him a success psychologist but he and another guy wrote a book last year called who not how and it's and you can get it online and you can watch his lectures on YouTube and whatever because he's a talkative guy but I think leadership it's never about you know so I mean many people Elon Musk would be one that comes to mind and not exacerbate would be another you know where they sort of sort of pretend it's all them but so much of it is against around you know finding great people that you really enjoy working with and that you can care about and using their talents in the in the best possible way while giving them access to knowledge which will help them grow their careers I mean I've never been involved in big enterprises Atlantic Records was begged but I was running, you know, label with only 14 active artists and probably 20 in sort of development deals or whatever where you were seeing whether they I mean I always believe that you look at people whether it says executives or as participants and working with you and with artists I sort of view them as the same you know otherwise when I look back on it I think I've enjoyed nurturing few people around town two of them here are now record label presidents who started with me working for me you know one is a junior I creative guy I like promotion guy at Atlanta records who's now the president of BMG records and he is always you know saying you know that I really helped him and then there's another guy who's the president and he started as an intern then became a and I and I guy you know well he then became what we had then and sort of the tape copy guy who made cassettes or CD's to pitch to people and then got to know the catalogue of songs and then and was there when we developed Keith Urban and you know he went through many different stages and then became sort of the head of creative for Justin Timberlake and now he runs a label based out of New York that's got an office here and he's done great they're the head of he is not as the executive director but as president of the chairman of the board was an Australian guy that I used to work for me in Australia that I bought here to be an INR guy for me and then he you know he's built up a really great career here I just really view it as pretty similar you know you're actually helping guide people and I mean I've always believed that you give people enough rope and they are either going to hang themselves or are they going to run with it and make the most of it you know and probably there'll be a mix of both at different times you know but then you can sort of pull on the rope and go hey that probably isn't a good move you know you can see that it's not going where you want and it's costing money so let's all sit down together and talk about it and see how we can perhaps make it work more effectively.

Ambrozy: that's great

Coburn: I mean that may not fully answer it. I've always looked to other people as well I mean always and just kind why did they say documented by books about Richard Branson for instance you know and his creation of virgin records and then everything else I was lucky I met him in the first year of his operation when we were both young punks and I got to go and visit with him and spend time with him and then the following year I went back to England I just afraid released his first two or three records and then I got him invited out to his Manor house you know go to his recording studio out there but so I did benefit from meeting are they young sort of I'm with the creating of virgin records and I met Chris Blackwell when he created island records. And I fortunately got to work with Terry Ellis and Chris Wright who formed Chrysalis Records I mean those sort of iconic rock record labels and I think that I've always just like looked at others I do it still every day it's like how can I learn better but again I think leadership comes back to more than likely that to surrounding yourself with really smart younger people yeah and I just think that it's still a I'm excited when I meet you know young people and look at them and go wow yeah that I love their energy I love their interests.

Coburn: I think that people that have done best that have that I've worked with the younger you know team members that come in are the ones that ask the most questions and another fried you know it's like come and knock on the door at the you know and go could I talk to you about how copyright clearance works or could I talk to you about how you develop the data or whatever and I'd normally say look come back at 6:30 tonight if you if you're not going to work in the restaurant or the bar you know come back and let's talk at that time when I can give you more time and we can spend time just talking about it you know you know happily you know oh man I'll tell you there's no reason to hide anything you know I still call some of the biggest managers and you know -- I'm on the board of ASCAP so I made all the biggest greatest music publishers was in the world every at least every three months by never hesitate to call him and go how the flip did you do that you know what how did you what caused you to think that I think it's a fantastic can you tell me what the thinking process was and frequently though so I will you know Lady Gaga used to work in the mail room at in in our office she used to come in and shock people because she you know even in winter she'd come into the office in New York and she'd have a big I often eventually should only have lingerie on and should be working in the mail room and you know I mean there was an element of shocking people but she was also incredibly savvy you know and then sometimes you have to say look you better put the last layer on that you took off and you know it's like I'm hot well it's like well you better put another layer on but she you know she I mean I I love those sort of stories because it's just like people that have started you know I mean like David Geffen the great record executive started in the mail room at the William Morris agency and you know and other managers have started in those sort of places and then they just I mean you learn by asking you know like I get that's what you're doing you know you learn by asking and participating and getting your hands dirty but again that's where leadership plays a part cause someone can see you and go she's really savvy cause I like the questions so you know by asking I've always believed that by asking good questions you get good answers and then you could lease then you might not ask a follow on question but think about it and then text you know e-mail back and go hey could I talk to you about this you know I've got an artist that I'm really keen on and what's the best steps how do you do it I I've never it is attached I still have people that have worked with me in the past go what was your thought process yeah what made you think about doing that I mean Keith Urban every everyone turned me down for six years remove that's the dollars that invested and I was just saying you know solo little company and I just believed I could just never get over how it flipping grapes the live shows were yeah I mean just stunningly good and everyone should look Barry we really admire that you you're doing this with them and the shows are spectacular but it's never going to make it nationally too rock'n'roll it's never going to hit I mean like almost everybody that now talks to me size like I can remember when those early shows were so flipping great and I said yeah you didn't sign it well you didn't participate yeah well are you the believer we weren't we loved him and I mean that's just you know and I think so much it's like you know they ended their celebration on the CMA awards a couple of nights ago for Alan Jackson and it was you know made him like a lifetime whatever it there was some books that he that he's quoted in and seen a few times where he said well how on earth did that happen with them and what made you choose a manager from New Zealand and you know who I mean how did it happen what do you why do you think you succeeded and to his credit I've seen it on television interviews with others he said Barry and I Barry sometimes wanted it more than I did You know and he was always passionate about it and he loved my music and you know he would you know do anything to convince people that they should take notice and I and I think that's what it was I mean exceed unless they truly love and it dedicated to the artist they don't like big management companies that manage 30 or 50 acts just makes me feel sick because to me to me management is surprisingly personal management and I think that involves being personally involved and going like I just left what I do and it I think you can change this and I think what you said after the 4th song getting rid of it it's like yeah it's like no I don't talk about that no one I III used to love always step I still go to shows all the time you know I'll go and look at metal bands that I think have got potential perhaps to become mainstream and I'll just watch and I'll go I need to create they need some connection with the audience they don't just need to be these rough guys they're not going to appeal to women in particular and Metallica have women friends I'm still more male friends but a lot of these other rough math metal bands don't connect at all and it's like work here if you want a bigger audience you know if you want the same 300 people who came and saw you last time plus ten of their friends OK continue doing what you're doing but you know you can change it whatever it is yeah if you're a female singer-songwriter you know you're better you can be elusive but you're still going to make yourself interesting

Ambrozy: OK I have one last question for you.

Coburn: sure

Ambrozy: what advice could you provide as a college student looking for or looking to pursue a career like yours like more specifically personal management?

Coburn: um I've always gravitated and over the years we've had a lot of interns a lot many of them some of them I've talked about I think the greatest thing is the get really get your hands dirty it's like what we talked about right at the beginning is just doing things and because you're not going to find out I mean are you might believe that the best thing I can do is get this act on TikTok and then launch some stuff on Spotify and put a new track up every two weeks well there's 35 to 40,000 new tracks going on Spotify every single day new tricks oh wow so how are you going to get through the clutter and you hear about the big breakout from Ted Talk.

Coburn: I can tell you that a large number of those right cats dissolve very rapidly some of them do get through but we hear about the ones that get through we don't hear about the 10,000 that went up yesterday that no one cares about today so I think the best thing anyone can do is like if you want to be a manager then come the winter break or summer break next year is go out with the your friends that have got a band or that are going to do something and get your hands dirty go out and say look I'll count I'll sell merchandise at the shows because then you're going to look at all the best worse or try and get a job selling merchandise on the road with someone who's playing pools and arenas and big club and just say oh all come out with you because then you're going to see what it's really like and that chopras really isn't glamorous at all even if the headlining act you're going to be working your **** and I mean you're really are you're going to see what it's like if you could get out on a tour bus and some are actually learnt from doing that and you go out and you go oh my god the road crew finished loading out at like midnight or 12:30 last night when they loaded the truck or the truck and here we are at 8:00 AM and we're 4:30 and we've you know driven through the night and here they are waiting for the rigors to climb on the chains and get up and work out how they're going to fall the sound up the air and find the rigging points and hang the sound system and hang the light rigs and by 3:00. Hopefully they've gotten them up and make it get it all working so that at 4:00 o'clock PX can start coming in and sound checking and in the mail but you know but they're going to learn and I think that the people that succeed are those that have actually gone out and done things that mainly may not be what I just described but it's going to be finding out what works and what doesn't OK and understanding what things at different levels are the factors that move the needle.

Coburn: I think that it's getting your hands dirty whatever it is and frequently getting your hands dirty is finding someone to do an internship with which then might lead to that might lead to I mean give people a reason to want you to be and then turn you know show them that you've got you that you've studied and there's screens of stuff available when I look at it sometimes, you know, I'm amazed at what you can learn about other acts, you know, you might find you with Kurt Cobain from 20 years ago and you listen to it and watch and you go like well he's really messed up, but he's also giving some great advice, you know, and I think it's like studying and doing your homework and then working out how you can put it into practice, whether it's typing on an act that you've seen it at a local club and going freaking great I'd love to work with them. But then having enough knowledge to make mistakes but also make successes and realize that no one breaks out overnight. I mean everyone thinks they did it's like Oh yeah, we saw them on TikTok but probably before they even we've got something happening on TikTok and they've done something that's got a bit of a groundswell and there are so many acts that have that are actually built up a real momentum before they got a major breakout and it's like working out OK how did that how did that happen and not necessarily copying it but using those elements.

Coburn: I don't know whether I answered the questions or not but I mean I'm happy to help you in any way you know I think it's just it's to me I think again it goes back to finding people that can help you know and I the thing that amazes me is how few people ask questions I mean I get I get it if I go out like the other night I was out well this week I've been out to two major events people come up and go hey look I just admired this can you well got any ideas I'm working with this act and I go Oh yeah I really like them I think they got you got some momentum going they go yeah but how do I get out of that and I might go well which agency are you with them they'll go well I'm not really happy with what's going on and I go well what support have you given them you know photo of the record company into the booking agency and go what are you doing for us I got to go well what are you doing for us what how are you helping we haven't felt much help from you know and it's the same with the artists I mean it's like what are you doing for me what are you getting off your **** and posting some good stuff every day on you know online whether it's on you know whether it's on you know Facebook or whatever it doesn't matter Oh well Facebook doesn't mean anything any longer surprisingly it still wear a lot of people go you know Oh no I don't need to do anything with them a website where are people going to find live dates I mean I've had from the last month I've told two acts they need to get their doodoo together because I went to go to a show and it had been cancelled well yeah that was cancelled three weeks ago well then why didn't you put cancelled on your web page or on your on your Instagram page why didn't you change that oh I thought someone else was going to do it yeah well it's up to you to look at the dates every day because you might find a date that you didn't even know about this you know using you sorry but you know you can't blame things on other people it doesn't mean you should you got to work hard.

Ambrozy: Yeah, well thank you so much for doing this for me I really appreciate it.